Yesterday was the almost-monthly Old Goat Luncheon where a few of us "well seasoned" surveyors get together and stuff our faces full of everything we've been warned isn't good for us.
One still can't get use to unsweet ice tea...and hates sugar substitutes.
One had to pee before we left the office, when we got to the burger joint....and before we left. Nobody said anything....we all know what it's like getting use to a different blood pressure medication.
One mumbled "here's to you, doc" as he oversalted his French fries.
Quite a wild bunch, for sure. :pinch:
All the physical frailties to the side, we had a good chat and possibly even arrived at an epiphany....
Most everything that winds up on a survey nowadays isn't really there because the surveyor WANTS it on there. It's there because of 1 of 2 possibilities; either somebody else wants it on there...or the surveyor is afraid somebody wants it on there. I will agree there is too much extraneous garbage that winds up on our work, and it's probably our own damned fault. The truth is most of us will stick (almost) ANYTHING on a drawing....in hopes that it stimulates the client to pay us.
Being good friends, we all are brutally honest with each other. One of the group has a standard cert that is approximately one paragraph long.....followed with an entire page of poop attempting to qualify the conditions with which that cert is "true". We've tried for years to explain to him he can't certify his way out of liability...but he keeps trying. And of course someone had to remind us of my infamous note, "This absolutely idiotic note was added at the request of others." ...but nobody really remembered what the note was about.
We finally decided that fear is the driving factor when we produce our final product nowadays. The desire to perpetuate a boundary or forever fix a record of the fine work we've completed is truly secondary to our fear of lurking litigation or fear of the State Board's scrutiny.
But I guess surveyors aren't the only ones that have found ourselves "up to our asses" in a swamp full of litigious gators. While the restaurant menu above the counter had wonderfully portrayed pictures of all the fine foods offered...there was also a paragraph that touched on everything from calories and trans-fat to the possibilities of cosmic peanut dust on the desserts.
I bet the guy that made the menu didn't really want to put that crap on there either....
paden cash, post: 338574, member: 20 wrote:
We finally decided that fear is the driving factor when we produce our final product nowadays. The desire to perpetuate a boundary or forever fix a record of the fine work we've completed is truly secondary to our fear of lurking litigation or fear of the State Board's scrutiny.
I believe you older guys are correct. The only other fear I would add is the fear of actually charging the clients professional level fees.
Why, as a whole, are we such an insecure profession?
Brian Allen, post: 338581, member: 1333 wrote: I believe you older guys are correct. The only other fear I would add is the fear of actually charging the clients professional level fees.
Why, as a whole, are we such an insecure profession?
Don't know, Brian...but you're right. I just turned a proposal in yesterday to the property management A&E department major fast-food restaurant chain. I've been talking with them for a week. They have reported to me have LOTS of sights and are disillusioned with their Oklahoma surveyor (yawn). I looked at the title commitment and their survey requirements and gave them a good price. My email this morning reads something like "I must have misunderstood the scope" because the fees are significantly higher than what they have paid in the past.
Well guess what? You had a dildo screwing stuff up in the past. I sent them a breakdown of the hours that I estimated to perform the work to their (and ALTA) specifications. I thought 5K for a burger joint site was a good price...I guess they didn't.
Or more likely, they're use to the surveyor groveling and cutting their proposal price. Won't happen here. Sorry. We'd all make a helluva lot more money if we'd stick to our guns and tell the shoppers to "move along".
I never lost a penny on a job I didn't get.
paden cash, post: 338574, member: 20 wrote:
Being good friends, we all are brutally honest with each other. One of the group has a standard cert that is approximately one paragraph long.....followed with an entire page of poop attempting to qualify the conditions with which that cert is "true". We've tried for years to explain to him he can't certify his way out of liability...but he keeps trying. And of course someone had to remind us of my infamous note, "This absolutely idiotic note was added at the request of others." ...but nobody really remembered what the note was about.
er....
Ahh, don't you love all those words that are designed to shift all liability onto the surveyor. True, accurate, correct, certify,,,,,,,,,,
I'm so glad I stopped using them a long time ago:-)
well,,,,,,,,,,until I have to, just to get something through 🙁
but it is amazing how many places you can drop those offending words and no one notices or cares
paden cash, post: 338590, member: 20 wrote: ... My email this morning reads something like "I must have misunderstood the scope" because the fees are significantly higher than what they have paid in the past. I thought 5K for a burger joint site was a good price...I guess they didn't.
Update. Just for the record, my email reflecting the estimated man-hours and a breakdown of fees must have sufficed. I am now in possession of a signed contract for my original estimate fees.
I told you all they would try and pinch. Don't give in.
Looks like I've got 21 days to get dried ink on some paper...:)
To paraphrase a song from the sixties.................FEAR, DEATH, WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR......................ABSOLUTELY NOTHING !
Your words are too true. Many of us must feel the love and appreciation we crave even if it has to come from people who are paying us. Thus, the fear of anger and distrust.............and disbelief in our product.
There's a common theme I see popping up in these threads on a fairly regular basis. And that is about how surveyors tend to undercharge and also operate under the fear of litigation or reprisal from the licensing board. But I have some thoughts as to why this is so.
The second one is easy. Our license is our bread and butter. So if that license is compromised, we can't earn a living using it. So we work our a&*% off to make sure that we don't jeopardize the means we have to make money. This is also evidenced by how highly we regard our equipment and the products we produce (plats of surveys and related documentation).
Litigation basically falls under that same idea. Spending time in court takes away from the time we have to earn money with our feet out in the field like we want them to be. So we don't want to be involved in it at all. Even more so if that litigation is against us. Getting sued and losing has the potential to destroy our life as we've put it together. No one wants to lose their home or car or retirement or anything of the sort.
So that's the easy part to figure out.
But that first part, the part about how we often show a tendency to under value our work, that's the tricky one to figure out.
I think it has to do with the very nature of the work we do. We are LAND surveyors. And throughout the history of humans, LAND has always been revered. Those who own land often hold power. Land provides a place to put our home and a place to grow our food. Land is what we walk upon and at the end of life, many of us will be buried beneath it. Land is beautiful (I've seen the photos some of you lucky chumps take out in the field). And land is dangerous. Land is held as a "fixed point of reference" (even though there are times when it pitches and heaves like mad). And, above all, land is considered to be timeless. It was here when we arrived and it will be here after each of us leave this place.
Now I don't necessarily want to try to sound all philosophical and poetic (though sometimes I do), but I'm really just trying to convey the immense weight that LAND has upon the human experience. And here I am, some schmuck in Central California, and I'm expected to survey the land and decide where the lines are that divide ownership, delineate the limits of rights and usage, and establish reference points so that these lines and limits can be perpetuated basically FOREVER!
That's a big responsibility to take on. And it is also something that makes me want to tread lightly because in the end, it isn't my own land that I'm surveying. I'm surveying land for someone else. And they are trusting me to make sure that they have the land that is theirs. And I have to do this without any vested interest in that land.
It's pretty serious stuff when I think about it.