www.propertylinemaps.com

> Your disclaimers, while they certainly make sense to us as professional surveyors and mappers, are likely to be totally ignored by the general public. We see it every day. People ASSUME that we just magically go online somewhere and 'poof' draw their map.
> "Oh, I didn't know you had to actually dig things up!" or..
> "isn't that all in your GPS these days?" or...
> "I have this survey... (hands you the property appraiser website printout)"
>
> Your product simply reinforces those thought patterns.

I wonder what happened when the fellow in Utah got his "Property Line Map".

Thanks for the input gentlemen.

Just to clear up a misconception, I do not use only the county tax maps or county GIS maps. Instead, I use all the relevant data my client can provide along with any online research I do. In particular, I always want the legal description whether it is part of a PLSS section or a bunch of survey calls. Based on all the available data, my system produces approximate corner coordinates.

With respect to my domain name, PropertyLineMaps.com, I am not likely to change that. There is nothing in that name that claims I am producing survey maps or claims that the maps I produce have any accuracy at all. I have built a web presence around that name, including search engine optimization, and I am sticking with it.

To the best of my knowledge (this is my field after all) there is no easy way for a typical land owner to play with some free software and produce online maps and approximate corner coordinates similar in quality to what I am doing. If such a thing exists, please point me to it.

And as for competitors, all I can say is bring ’em on. I’ll compete on price, quality and service - just like most other businesses on the planet. Here’s a funny. I know of a website that sells software that lets you put in survey calls and get a nice map on a blank background. They have a feature that lets you put in a starting coordinate and their software spits out coordinates for all the other corners. What’s missing here? Yup, any accommodation for basis of bearing. Yeah, I can compete with those guys.

Andy makes the point that some of my clients will misuse my product and apparently treat my work as a survey. Anything is possible and, alas, there is no socially acceptable cure for stupid. Nonetheless, we don’t tell owners of gun stores they have to close up their business and starve to death since some idiot bought one of their guns and proceeded to do bad stuff with it. Where is the principled reason that requires my business to be treated any different in this regard?

No doubt some people, depending on their needs, find everything they require on their county GIS. Other people, that become my clients, email me links to their county GIS or GIS screenshots. Obvious those people were not able to obtain what they wanted from their county GIS.

And of course everyone here knows that some county GIS systems are reasonably good while other county GIS systems display parcel lines that are obviously not in the right place. In broad strokes, I believe that my work will often more closely match the client’s legal description than the parcel lines displayed on many county GIS systems due to the individual attention each parcel receives. For me to enroll in any GIS course would be to go backwards and also detract from the personalized service I am giving to each client with the unique software I have developed.

For some years now the survey community has been bumping up against advances in technology, mostly coming out of the GIS/geospatial camp. I thought you all smoked a peace pipe on this stuff 10+ years ago when the NCEES model law was adopted that defines what is and what is not land surveying. Under that model law, the work I am doing is defined as *not* land surveying.

Here is a succinct report on the collaborative work that went into that model law:
http://www.pvts.net/pdfs/SurvGIS/Joffe_Acord1.pdf

And here is the most recent version of the model law:
http://cdn4.ncees.co/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Model-Law.pdf

All of which begs a few questions.

The survey board for each state had reps at the annual NCEES meeting where everyone voted and the model law was adopted. How did the survey board members from your state vote? Most of them voted in favor otherwise the model law would not have been adopted.

OK, let’s assume the reps from your state voted in favor of the NCEES model law. (I’m sure there are records somewhere.) What did those reps do when they got back home? Did they push their full board to ask their legislature to adopt the NCEES model law or did they do ... nothing? And if they did nothing (which I suspect is likely true in most cases) then why did they waste tax dollars going to that annual NCEES meeting in the first place if they were planning to come back home and simply ignore the 3 years of collaborative work that went into the model law?

Can anyone shed light?

If there are states that have adopted the NCEES model law, I would love to hear about it. Does the model law seem to be working OK?

I'm curious how you handle Lot/Block descriptions? Sorry if I missed that on your website.

Usually I tell my client that I cannot do lot/block unless they can provide a copy of the subdivision map. Then it becomes just another survey.

Sometimes the county will have a good enough tax map or GIS that I can use that, but I prefer the subdivision map (ie survey).

Per NC GS 89C
Practice of land surveying.
–
a.
Providing professional services such as consultation, investigation,
testimony, evaluation, planning, mapping, assembling, and
interpreting reliable scientific measurements and information relative
to the location, size, shape, or physical features of the earth,
improvements on the earth, the space above the earth, or any part of
the earth, whether the gathering of information for the providing of
these services is accomplished by conventional ground
measurements, by aerial photography, by global positioning via
satellites, or by a combination of any of these methods, and the
utilization and development of these facts and interpretations into an
orderly survey map, plan, report, description, or project. The practice
of land surveying includes the following:
1. Locating, relocating, establishing, laying out, or retracing any
property line, easement, or boundary of any tract of land;
2. Locating, relocating, establishing, or laying out the alignment
or elevation of any of the fixed works embraced within the
practice of professional engineering;
3.Making any survey for the subdivision of any tract of l
and, including the topography, alignment and grades of streets and
incidental drainage within the subdivision, and the
preparation and perpetuation of maps, record plats, field note
records, and property descriptions that represent these
surveys;
4. Determining, by the use of the principles of land surveying,
the position for any survey monument or reference point, or
setting, resetting, or replacing any survey monument or
reference point;
5.Determining the configuration or contour of the earth's surface or the position of fixed objects on the earth's surface by measuring lines and angles and applying the principles of mathematics or photogrammetry;
6. Providing geodetic surveying which includes surveying for
determination of the size and shape of the earth both
horizontally and vertically and the precise positioning of
points on the earth utilizing angular and linear measurements
through spatially oriented spherical geometry; and
7. Creating, preparing, or modifying electronic or computerized
data, including land information systems and geographic
information systems relative to the performance of the
practice of land surveying.

Sorry 'bout that Bro, but in NC I think you may have crossed the line.

I have mixed emotions about this service as a for-profit business. I know that when our county added aerial maps to their online tax maps we had a flurry of work come in because of the inaccuracy of the aerials. That was good for a while but I guess word got out since we rarely get those jobs anymore. For $5 the assessors office will print you a nice 11x17 glossy map. And since its from the Government I think people would put more faith in it.

About a month ago this board was visited by a land owner somewhere in Pennsylvania asking questions about his property. Several of us spent a fair amount of time working through it with him. One major problem I recall was that when we found his county's GIS of his property, it clearly did not conform to his property description. However, we realized this was an problem in his description rather than a GIS problem.

A couple weeks prior to that we had another land owner visit with us about a problem very close to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Again, a number of us spent a fair amount of time on that property. We found the county GIS and confirmed that what her deed said pretty well agreed with what the GIS was showing. However, after looking at the GIS in her neighborhood there had to be some horrible descriptions or some huge mistakes leaving gaps between properties where none were intended. Part of her house, half of her swimming pool and most of one driveway appeared to belong to her neighbor to the east while she appeared to own the driveway and garage of her neighbor to the south.

What I'm getting at is that sometimes neighbors become very agitated when something is discovered by someone that depicts a lack of harmony with what they have assumed was correct. Surveyors work in this environment all the time and have become accustomed to assisting the property owners work things out, if they can be worked out. Your "property line" maps could land you in court someday simply because what you provided to them started World War III. Trust me, it will be all your fault.

Joseph-

In the states I am licensed to practice land surveying, California and Nevada, the definition of land surveying is defined by the following code:

CALIFORNIA
Business and Professions Code - BPC
DIVISION 3. PROFESSIONS AND VOCATIONS GENERALLY [5000 - 9998.8]
( Heading of Division 3 added by Stats. 1939, Ch. 30. )

CHAPTER 15. Land Surveyors [8700 - 8805]
( Chapter 15 added by Stats. 1939, Ch. 41. )

ARTICLE 3. Application of the Chapter [8725 - 8731]
( Article 3 added by Stats. 1939, Ch. 41. )

8726.

A person, including any person employed by the state or by a city, county, or city and county within the state, practices land surveying within the meaning of this chapter who, either in a public or private capacity, does or offers to do any one or more of the following:

(c) Locates, relocates, establishes, reestablishes, or retraces any property line or boundary of any parcel of land, right-of-way, easement, or alignment of those lines or boundaries.

NEVADA
NRS?625.040??“Practice of land surveying” defined.

1.??A person who, in a private or public capacity, does or offers to do any one or more of the following practices land surveying:

(a)?Locates, relocates, establishes, re-establishes or retraces any property line or boundary of any tract of land or any road, right-of-way, easement, alignment or elevation of any of the fixed works embraced within the practice of professional engineering as described in NRS 625.050.

(c)?Determines, by the use of the principles of land surveying, the position for any monument or reference point which marks a property line, boundary or corner, or sets, resets or replaces any such monument or reference point.

The State of Nevada takes it one step further:

(g)?Determines the information shown or to be shown on any map or document prepared or furnished in connection with any one or more of the functions described in paragraphs (a) to (f), inclusive.

My interpretation of the laws in California and Nevada is that you are providing a service to locate property lines. Just because you produce a product that is presented digitally, you have still represented a location of a property line. According to the states of Nevada and California, this is practicing land surveying.

I could go into a slew of other laws regarding the reporting of positions and their accuracies, but most everyone's eyes would glaze over and it would not do much to persuade your opinion anyways.

Brian Christensen, CA LS8672, NV PLS21061

My question is, HOW does this service determine the "initial point" of the tract of land?
I love Google, BUT, on my copy I cannot clearly identify a section corner monument or a found iron rod.
Even with a copy of the deed, nailing down the Commencing Point or the Point of Beginning is rather difficult. Thus saying the line is within 30 feet is rather iffy.
Over the last 45 years I have worked with aerial photography, lidar, scanners and all the other exciting technology, but I have found that without actual ground control the resulting "maps" are suspect. To "eyeball" a google map and claim 30 foot accuracy sounds a little rash to me.
BUT for a "deer camp map", this may be just the thing. I know most camps cannot afford to have the site flown and have an orthophoto made, so this may just fill their ticket. BUT I still would not try to use this to tell an armed individual that he is hunting on my land without my permission, unless he's dead center of my 140 acres.

Joseph,

I agree with you. You are not "surveying" as defined by the NCEES model law.

However, as you know, the definition of "surveying" is a state by state adventure.

I just can't wrap my head around how a person merely taking information from a public document, placing that information on a photograph with the disclaimer that it is not an authoritative placement or location of a boundary line being defined as practicing "surveying". If that is "surveying", I sure hope all assessors, real estate agents, title officers, and all map makers including google are licensed to do the same or similar things.

As for adopting the model law to define surveying in Idaho, our Board and state society are currently working on this, which is long, long, long overdue. We'll see within the next year or so how well that endeavor turns out. :-/

Congratulations to Idaho for starting on the road toward adopting the NCEES model law.

And speaking of Google, the following link starts plain old Google maps and displays an area in California just south of the Sacramento Zoo.
https://maps.google.com/?ll=38.536065,-121.499863&spn=0.009987,0.013797&t=m&z=16

Notice the faint parcel lines.

Want to get approximate corner coordinates? No problem. Just point your cursor at a corner, right click and select "What's here?" The approximate coordinate is displayed near the top of the screen.

It is not too tough to find a county in any state where Google got ahold of their shape files for parcel lines and is displaying that data.

If my approximate property lines and coordinates are bad, how can Google's approximate property lines and coordinates be good? Or to turn it around, if a state survey board is going to work hard to convict me of the crime of surveying without a license then is that same survey board going after Google with the same vigor? I mean - hey - why only pick on the little guy?

So for any of you that are reporting me to your state survey board, I'm curious if you are also going to report Google.

By the way, penalties vary by state but a conviction for surveying without a license is either a misdemeanor or gross misdemeanor. Upon a conviction the penalty is up to 1 year in jail and/or up to a $5,000 fine.

Now let’s switch gears just a bit.

In order to be properly charged with a crime of *any* kind, certain basic criteria have to be met.

First, I am not showing up on my client’s land and personally doing stuff to locate their corners and lines on the ground. There is also no evidence that any of my clients are using the approximate coordinates I prepared and doing this themselves. Exactly how can I be guilty of a crime as some kind of ‘helper’ when (1) there is no evidence that the principal, my client, has committed any crime and (2) no evidence that my client intends to commit a crime in the future? To the best of my knowledge, one cannot be convicted today of a crime that might either (1) happen tomorrow or (2) never happen at all.

Second, assume the worst case. For the sake of argument, let's say one of my clients committed the crime of trying to establish the corners and lines of property they own and used the approximate corner coordinates I provided in doing that work. In order for me to be guilty of that same crime as a ‘helper’ I have to have intent to assist in the commission of that crime. It is simply impossible for any fair-minded person to conclude I have the intent to help my clients do things like establish their property corners and lines when my website has repeated statements telling my clients NOT to do that very thing.

> I just can't wrap my head around how a person merely taking information from a public document, placing that information on a photograph with the disclaimer that it is not an authoritative placement or location of a boundary line being defined as practicing "surveying". If that is "surveying", I sure hope all assessors, real estate agents, title officers, and all map makers including google are licensed to do the same or similar things.

Brian-

I would agree with you as well. I think the caveat to this should be offering this service/product for a fee. Not only is Joseph providing a map with the boundaries of real property depicted on them, he is also providing coordinates and reporting their accuracy ("Our goal is to produce GPS coordinates that are within 30 feet of accurate on average."). The State of California sets forth very specific laws as to how this will be done.

Assessor's maps in California and Nevada do not come from the Assessor with Google Earth imagery associated with them, nor are they geo-referenced (excepting Section, Township & Range). Real estate agents do not offer this service for a fee, only as a marketing tool. Real estate agents savvy enough to portray this at a scale that could be interpreted on the ground might be another story, never seen one. Title companies in my neck of the woods only attach a copy of the assessor's mapping to their title reports. Google may be the only entity you mention that is, in my opinion, in violation of CA and NV statutes, as GE Pro is a paid service. But let's face it; its Google!

As you can see from Joseph's FAQ page, he has pulled his service from CA. Someone in CA must have the same opinion as I.

Respectfully,

Brian Christensen

> I would agree with you as well. I think the caveat to this should be offering this service/product for a fee. Not only is Joseph providing a map with the boundaries of real property depicted on them, he is also providing coordinates and reporting their accuracy ("Our goal is to produce GPS coordinates that are within 30 feet of accurate on average."). The State of California sets forth very specific laws as to how this will be done.
>
> Assessor's maps in California and Nevada do not come from the Assessor with Google Earth imagery associated with them, nor are they geo-referenced (excepting Section, Township & Range). Real estate agents do not offer this service for a fee, only as a marketing tool. Real estate agents savvy enough to portray this at a scale that could be interpreted on the ground might be another story, never seen one. Title companies in my neck of the woods only attach a copy of the assessor's mapping to their title reports. Google may be the only entity you mention that is, in my opinion, in violation of CA and NV statutes, as GE Pro is a paid service. But let's face it; its Google!
>
> As you can see from Joseph's FAQ page, he has pulled his service from CA. Someone in CA must have the same opinion as I.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Brian Christensen

Brian,

I'm not intimately familiar with California's definition, but does it actually say that obtaining a fee is the trigger? In other words, if I located property monuments for landowners in California without charging a fee, would I be in violation of the law?

Also, in reference to the geo-referenced Twp, Rng, Sec. lines, if a parcel is described by TRS, are they not boundary lines also?

What about district, city, county, and state boundary lines? I'm sure those are depicted on many maps produced by hundreds of non-licensed entities. Go into any convenience store and I'm sure you can purchase many maps that depict these (and other) boundary lines.

Not to be argumentative, but Joseph isn't "locating" anything, nor is he representing anything in any authoritative way.

Brian

Very interesting. I've read all these replies as well as the entire thread from last Feb. Amazing the difference in what folks were saying then compared to what they've said in the last 2 days here.

One thing I noticed in both the old thread and this is the guy's repeated use of "you need to contact a surveyor".

I am surprised to see none of you have jumped on this (if so I missed it).
Well hell? I'm a "surveyor".

Oh wait!
Did perhaps he mean to say "LICENSED LAND surveyor"?

"A very common mistake is to assume that the bearings on a survey are based on true north. It is also wrong to assume that the bearings on a survey are based on magnetic north. Instead, surveyors typically pick a direction that is convenient to work with and simply define that direction as north. That direction can easily be several degrees or more away from true north. If you try to find property corners by simply following the bearings on a survey, you could easily be going in the wrong direction!"

WHAT??? Joe, what universe you live in?? In my little part of the universe, this practice has not been allowed for property plats since I started this stuff, and that covers some 45 years. Solar, astronomic or magnetic were the old time methods. I've never seen a property plat based on "any line can be North".
That freaking statement is insulting to every surveyor that has ever been. Hell, Son even the GLO guys back in the 18560's and 60's did not do as you suggest. ANYONE surveying like that in my area would have felt the wrath of the State Board in a friggin' New York minute!!

§ 73-13-73. Persons practicing land surveying required to register.

No person shall practice surveying without having first been duly and regularly licensed by the Board of Licensure for Professional Engineers and Surveyors as a professional surveyor as required by Sections 73-13-71 through 73-13-105, nor shall any person practice surveying whose authority to practice is revoked by the said board.

The practice of surveying, which must be performed by or under the direct supervision of a professional surveyor and each map or drawing of which must be stamped with the seal of said licensee as provided in Section 73-13-83, includes, but is not limited to, the following: property and boundary surveys; subdivision surveys and plats; public land surveys; easement surveys; right-of-way surveys; lease surveys; and all other surveys that require the establishment or reestablishment of property boundaries.

Duties within both the practice of surveying and the practice of engineering, which must be performed by or under the direct supervision of a professional surveyor or a professional engineer and each map, drawing or report of which must be stamped with the seal of said licensee as provided in Sections 73-13-29 and 73-13-83, include, but are not limited to, the following: