www.propertylinemaps.com

Didn't we go round and round with a guy from Renton WA last year about this?

Can anyone link to that thread?

[msg=192929] https://surveyorconnect.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=192929 [/msg]

Within 30 feet of accurate can help you decide whether you need to hire a surveyor. LOL!

Q: I have a property line dispute with my neighbor. Can your service help me?
A: Maybe. Take a look at some of the example maps. On average the property lines on those example maps and the GPS coordinates that we produce should be within 30 feet of accurate. No, the data we produce is not survey-grade, however for many purposes it is close enough. But if you need to know exactly where your property corners and lines are, then you need to contact a surveyor. While the online map links we produce are not surveys they can help you decide whether or not you need to hire a surveyor.

> Within 30 feet of accurate can help you decide whether you need to hire a surveyor. LOL!

"Thank you so much. You were very helpful and provided a great service at a great price!! I couldn't be happier!!!!" Lou in New York state

"Your service was a godsend!!!! I suspected that the shopping mall across town had been build on my lot; however by using your service 'accurate to 30 feet' I was able to determine that the mall was actually more than six mile from my lot!!!! Thank you Property Line Maps for restoring my piece of mind!!!!! Jim in Maryland

I just emailed the a question as to how their service differs from the GIS information available fro free from most counties in the USA. I can't wait to hear their reply.
I also forwarded the link to the Alabama BOR. They probably won't get it; for a few days because it is snowing in Alabama today and almost everything is closing.;-)

Their reply:

Hi Steve,

I hope you saw on my FAQ that if someone wants to know where their actual lines are on the ground then I tell them they need to hire you or another surveyor. I make that point in one of the pdf files on my "GPS Tips" page also.

Yes, lots of counties have an online GIS that shows approximate parcel lines on an aerial. Here are a few reasons why my service is different.

1. Some county GIS systems do not include a layer showing USGS topo maps.

2. Some county GIS systems do not display any coordinates at all.

3. Some county GIS systems display approximate coordinates but they are state plane and most people do not have clue how to use those.

4. Sometimes the google aerial is better than the GIS aerial.

5. My service provides a link that people can click that displays the google aerial (or a topo map) and my client's approximate property lines. County GIS systems do not provide such a clickable link.

Joseph Elfelt

I'm not sure, but it sounds like the guy is a good GIS guy, who is making it clear he doesn't have a precise map. Someone who has studied GIS technology and is trying to make a living without claiming to have an accurate boundary survey. I think that is what we have all been wanting in a GIS. The GIS folk who try to tell us our legal description is wrong, or our survey is poor or who try to come off to the unknowing public that they are experts in land boundary; they're the ones he is making himself stand apart from as far as I can tell.

But maybe I'm wrong...?

put me in the "not sure its a big deal" camp... This isn't as bad as the guy actually out in the field making proclamations about whether a found rebar is property corner or not. Not sure how this site handles lot/block descriptions from a modern subdivision. Seems more for large tracts of land.

Shoot. I was all ready to bring the hangman rope! Now you go and put doubt in my mind...;-)

I'm with Andy on this one...doesn't seem like a big deal. He openly tells you the values are at best 30' from the corners...I'm sure for many situations its fine. If not it I'm sure the adjoiner will call a surveyor and complain.

I'd almost agree with that Andy but, with the power of some GIS softwares and the amount of digital datasets available, wouldn't this kinda' be on the low-end of products you could market ?

It almost seems as if this person is the Find-Your-Corners contemporary in the GIS field.

He's trying to sell aspirin to people who don't want to pay for an MRI to diagnose their headache. That often isn't enough because the problem is more serious.

What they really want is a service in between. A doctor is allowed to use some judgment as to whether you need the MRI, but a surveyor is not allowed that freedom and has to sell them the maximum service.

Hello Everyone,

My name is Joseph Elfelt and I am the guy behind [REDACTED]
Don’t shoot - I’m friendly.
I saw some hits on my server log from this thread and thought I would stop by.

Thank you to those who spoke up and saw no big harm in the service I am offering.

Yes, I realize there will always be strongly held opinions on this topic. But here is a big picture thought for you. I expect there are some circumstances where almost everyone will agree that it is fine for a property owner to want to get approximate corner coordinates. Here is just one example.

Some of my clients have asked if I can produce a large print of the aerial photo with their approximate property lines. They want to frame that and hang it on their wall. Or maybe a group of hunters want such a print for their hunting camp. Well, I produce online maps which you likely have seen on my ‘Examples’ page but I don’t do prints.

Sidebar: Near the top of my examples page is a link for a map I made for a bunch of land in Oregon. There are also instructions for how to ‘fly’ over that land in 3D with your browser. Way cool! Check it out.

There is a company in Billings, MT that specializes in making custom prints of aerials and topos. Not too long ago I emailed my contact there and it turns out that some of their clients are asking if they can buy a print that has their approximate property lines. But that company does not have any technology to produce approximate property lines. However they do have technology that lets anyone upload a GPX file to their site. The data that is in the GPX file will appear on the print. Since one of my deliverables is a GPX file with the approximate corner coordinates, there is now a way for anyone to obtain a custom high quality aerial or topo print with their approximate property lines.

Recently I got an order from someone with a bunch of property in upstate New York who wants such a print. He was absolutely thrilled and said he had been looking for a reasonably priced way to get this done for 10 years.

Does anyone really think that these prints will harm the public? More to the point, does anyone here really think that by producing prints like I have described we are surveying without a license and should be fined thousands of dollars and/or locked up in the county jail for 6 months?

Now if those prints with approximate property lines are OK (at least for most of you) then we have to have a way to present that product to the public and make it clear that we are not crossing the line into the survey world. Here are additional statements on my website that carefully describe the limits on what I do and tries to send business your way when that is what people need:

From my FAQ:
Q: My property has never been surveyed. Can I use the coordinates you provide to mark my property corners on the ground?
A: No. There are two reasons for this. First, the coordinates we provide are only approximate. Second, it might be a violation of state law for anyone, even the property owner, to mark their property corners on the ground unless they are a licensed surveyor. If your goal is to get your property corners accurately marked on the ground then you must hire a surveyor.

Q: Can I use your coordinates to determine if my neighbor's building or my neighbor's road is on my land?
A: No. The only way to know for certain whether anything like a building or road is on the wrong side of the property line is to know the exact location of the property line. The only way to know that exact location is to hire a surveyor.

One of the PDF files on my “GPS Tips” page says:

Reminder: The property corner coordinates you receive from us and the online map link are only approximates and do not constitute a land survey. If you need to know where your property corners and property lines are actually located on the ground, then you must hire a licensed surveyor.

Reminder: The corner coordinates we provide are only approximate and are not exact. There is a certain amount of error in those coordinates. Likewise, a consumer GPS also has a certain amount of error. Even if you carefully follow all of the above instructions and your GPS shows an "Off course" value of 0, all you really know is that your property line is somewhere in the vicinity. If you need to actually locate your property lines on the ground then you need to hire a licensed surveyor.

If you agree that there some legitimate reasons why a property owner might want to have approximate corner coordinates (for example, so they can order a print) then it is also OK for a service such as mine to sell the property owner those approximate coordinates.

I certainly learned some things from the earlier thread here on surveyorconnect and in writing text for my website I tried to take some of the concerns expressed in that thread into account. If anyone has some level-headed suggestions on additional points I should make on my website so it is 110% clear that I am not doing surveying, then I have an open mind for hearing what you have to say.

. If anyone has some level-headed suggestions on additional points I should make on my website so it is 110% clear that I am not doing surveying, then I have an open mind for hearing what you have to say.

Set your sights a little higher. This is basically a crumb-snatching venture.
Legitimate land surveying is considerably more complex than most understand and introducing an "approximate" product only serves to confound understanding in the public's eye.
If you just can't get past this business model for now, for reasons you'll know, I could offer a few suggestions for a practicable name change, such as:

- Your Property Appraisal View Maps -

- Aerial Property Appraisal Lines -

I'm drawing a creative blank after that, but the gist of my point would be you are not actually using a Property Line or a Boundary Line in your finished product, you are in fact aggregating free public records from the Appraisal District and mis-representing the product, regardless the disclaimer.
This may seem like a modest distinction on your end after all the effort you've put in to your business, but it's not lost on land surveyors and those who have relied on tax maps and similar products.
And think about it too. You're basically entering a race to the bottom type of venture insomuch as what you're doing can be replicated by most with a few hours on their hands, access to software that can be downloaded for free, and some very basic technical skill. I was creating these maps over fourteen years ago, as a field hand to visualize survey projects I worked on.
Putting myself in your shoes for a minute my concerns would be that once someone sees you making a dollar compiling this data with a relative ease, they will pile on and you will not only be lost in a sea of websites offering your same service, but probably be priced out, and possibly not recoup any initial investment you've made.

What I would do in your place, and if you haven't already, is enroll in some GIS courses, and purchase a higher grade GIS product possibly from ESRI, and put your considerable talent to work for you. There's an entire world of data waiting for a proper presentation, and a limitless market of those needing answers but can't aggregate and compile this data.
Don't settle for these stunted aerial property views. 🙂

Maybe we should be looking at this site as a revenue GENERATOR.

For every owner who uses a $40 website and handheld GPS to mark his property corners, there will be 3 or more adjoining property owners who are going to say "That's not correct!!" and hire a real land surveyor.

Thank you Joseph!

Joseph,

Thanks for the comments. I have to say, I think RJ's point about the NAME of your business is probably a huge sticking point for land surveyors.
(And possibly State boards, since you use the term "Property line map"

Your disclaimers, while they certainly make sense to us as professional surveyors and mappers, are likely to be totally ignored by the general public. We see it every day. People ASSUME that we just magically go online somewhere and 'poof' draw their map.
"Oh, I didn't know you had to actually dig things up!" or..
"isn't that all in your GPS these days?" or...
"I have this survey... (hands you the property appraiser website printout)"

Your product simply reinforces those thought patterns.

Again, I'm not too terribly worried, as I think your services will lead to more survey work, not less. But it will be annoying when I have to explain again to potential clients the value of doing it right the first time.

Andy

> Hello Everyone,
>
> My name is Joseph Elfelt and I am the guy behind [REDACTED]
> Don’t shoot - I’m friendly.
> I saw some hits on my server log from this thread and thought I would stop by.

Joe,
Thanks for stopping by. I always find it irritating when owners of anything are not engaged in their online presence. Your disclaimers seem pretty clear to me, it's probably just the combination of "Property Line" in your site name that will get most surveyors in a confusing bind or get feathers ruffled. This isn't necessarily our fault as many State Boards that regulate our profession have codified those words combined with others to relate to the practice of land surveying. My only suggestion would be to remain around this site as an active member. When a client needs more than your service and wants to hire a surveyor this site would be a good place to get referrals from and vice versa.

Rock on, Joseph.

Stephen

This guy is not doing anything wrong.

Stephen