Where's the ROW?

If there is no deed or other taking, I'd go with existing centerline. As to width, I'm not sure how anyone can justify the 66' other than the DOT is the 66,000 pound guerrilla. And they would win the battle if it came to one.

I see utility poles...you might take a look at their plans/easements.

DDSM

To get a Stage Coach, using a 6 horse hitch, around a curve takes a lot of room, especially on sharp turns, to remain on the road the coach needs to be at the start of the curve and on the road before the leaders can start to swing or the coach leaves the road so variable widths were used at curves, few were surveyed or even described, but easily found on the ground at the time by observation. Should be in the State HWY records what was taken and it could be described only by C/L. If so and no ROW width is noted, statutory instructions in force at the time of State acceptance should provide the legal width.
jud

I agree with Dave. If there is no existing legal description defining the road or the ROW, I would locate the entire centerline through the entire section if you are in a PLSS state. Mathematically figure tangent and curves based upon a best fit of the existing centerline. Then on your plat note the distance to the centerline from the section corners where you cross section line. If a curve is on the section line, establish the curve data to the end of the curve into the next section which means you'd also have to get the tangent past the curve. You would be basically establishing what should have already been done. Discuss your plan with the DOT and if they agree to a 66' ROW, monument that line. Is this the right thing to do? Who knows, but you have to start with something that doesn't affect the existing road location.

Where's the ROW? "Where It Is."

A stage coach most likely carried the US Mail. That it got into the Federal system so early may be because it was a Post Road.

It may not have required taking, just a definition of the right of way. That may mean that the ROW is an easement not fee simple. So the landowners may own what they own, but it is subject to the 66' right of way.

You worry too much. If everything fits but one curve you have a very well done description. Describe what you find, end of story. Fences along a ROW do not limit the ROW, they limit the movement of cattle on to the traveled way.

Paul in PA

Typical TxDot procedure to fix a stationing problem is to insert an equation at the appropriate station to fix the location of the problem and keep the forward stationing ahead the same.

B-)

Where's the ROW? "Where It Is."

Jeff Lucas just wrote a law book for Illinois and he talked about the theory that cities, states etc always get the ROW width they think they should have. He states things such as Acquiescence, Practial Location, Occupation etc can create boundaries other than a platted width. This of course flies in the face of what so many of us are taught, that the roads always get the platted width.

In this case, it sounds like there were no real ROW takes, which is not that uncommon in Illinois. They just built the highway where an existing road was and felt there was already a ROW there, they didn't need to get any more. There is a good chance the fences, the back of the ditch, etc would establish the ROW if something like this went to court. The question is, why let something go to court, if 66 feet look reasonable, I'd use the centerline and go with that and give the DOT what they think they have.

i assume that Paul's mention about the establishment of a "post" road is correct. in Tejas, i have never run across a "post" road. at the least, you have a prescriptive easement established by the stage lines that was improved upon and is what it is today.

the centerline of the paving is just that, the centerline of the paving. the outside lines of a prescriptive easement used as a public road is the outside lines of the area that is maintained to support the road purposes. usually that is out to the fence lines or to the back of the borrow ditches.

Where's the ROW? "Where It Is."

The question is simply where would the ROW line be drawn, not how to describe it, station it, is is fee or easement or how to create a best fit alignment. I don't think anyone knows if any establishment documents exist. They certainly aren't readily available from the DOT or county and there are zero taking or easement records. In other areas along the route the surveyors are usiing 66 just because that's a standard establishment width later in history and the DOT has a ROW line drawn on the plan there.

David is getting at what the point of my thread is.

My question is that if there are no easement or establishment records to be found and the width the road actually used for drainage and etc is variable, is the DOT legally entitled to the 66 feet because its on an 80 year old plan? It makes a difference because there are large trees growing on untouched ground inside the 66 foot line that the DOT probably think can be removed without compensation which they can if no one takes them (or me) to court.

The Right Of Drainage Has Little To Do With The ROW Width

The right of drainage can extend far beyond any right of way. In a level area it may be a mere few feet outside the traveled way and far within the ROW line. In rolling areas a side ditch could extend well beyond the ROW, and a discharge ditch even farther.

The right of drainage goes along with water rights and far predates the USA.

Paul in PA

Where's the ROW? "Where It Is."

The DOT can't claim 66' without some legal basis, which the 1929 paving plan can't provide. Lacking a another legal basis the R/W is what's been used by the public and maintained by whoever had jurisdiction over the road. The pavement centerline, and the presence of utility poles and fences mean nothing until you've proven that they do. The hard work of determining the limits of use and maintenance, and determining what the fences mean, may explain the use of the 66' width by others. Make the DOT tell you where their R/W is.

Does your state have laws regarding prescriptive row? I would start there. Around here we run into this issue on occassion and luckily Idaho has fairly well defined laws regarding this sort of thing. Of course, each road is different but if it is merely a prescriptive row just identify the critical parts and set the width in accordance with the laws.

It makes a difference because there are large trees growing on untouched ground inside the 66 foot line that the DOT probably think can be removed without compensation which they can if no one takes them (or me) to court.
He is asking for legal advice for his protection or empowerment to protect something, he needs legal advice from those qualified to give such advice.
jud

Federal Aid Projects (F.A.P.)

Sounds eerily familiar with a few routes in Oklahoma.

From what I have been able to glean:

The Federal Aid Projects began around 1925. The most common was 'surfacing' existing roadways. To qualify for federal money the route had to be an existing county road with a minimum of 66' of r/w. Most of these (in Oklahoma) became State-designated Highway Routes.

We have an old route here in central Oklahoma that later became State Highway 77. The original 'dedications' were filed so quickly that the route crosses 2 counties with only 2 filed r/w documents to cover them. One R/W dedication covers over twenty miles. Dedicating, of course, 66 feet so the road would qualify for Federal Aid.

There are a number of existing plats and properties along this route that indicate less than the 33' (1/2 of 66') that the property would bear. It is a real nightmare, simply because the r/w was created so quickly and ram-rodded.

Usually when I survey around there I try to find existing monumentation. In some places the 66' fits, in some places not. Good luck, you'll need it.

In such cases I've allowed for the width to include all "street furniture" .... poles, including cross arms, telephone & gas lines etc. along with what is needed for the road to 'work' such as its drainage to its outlet into a nearby natural body of water, sight lines etc.

Good luck,

Derek

Federal Aid Projects (F.A.P.)

You're onto it Paden.

I wasn't completly forthcoming with all the information I had. This note was at the beginning of the 1929 plan. Now where is the ROW if the 66 ft was never actually used? I promise no more surprises.

I don't know what state your in, but this is an interesting read regardless.

Road Law Handbook It left me wishing there was a version written for California. If anybody is familiar with a California specific type of road law handbook, please let me know.

There may be multiple easement lines that could be "claimed", which may overlap.

The decision of the DOT agency to define the extents of their prescriptive easement in a particular way is based upon their percieved ability to defend that claim in court.

Utilities - I'll bet it's either a blanket easement, or no easement recorded.

Federal Aid Projects (F.A.P.)

Not a surveyors call, he can show the evidence and if that evidence is in agreement with one or the other, there might be justification to indicate your best guess as to the width but that guess probably could be successfully challenged if 66' was wanted by the controlling government agency and you had guessed 50'. The ROW width needs to be settled lawfully one way or another, the surveyor can gather physical evidence and even some record evidence, but the decision lies with the State and owners reaching an agreement that gets recorded or a court decision. Holding the view that you need legal advice.
jud.