A couple of current threads mentioned stones and rebars beside or over them. That reminded me of this picture. The plat just says "Found stone." The post is old, and the wire newer than the capped rod.
I haven't measured to see where he measured to. Where do you think he measured?
If I were a LS and found a stone next to an old corner post, I would have figured the post had been set in place of the stone and the stone reset beside the post to indicate its origin. Or maybe the post was set beside the undisturbed stone. I sure wouldn't have set a rod on the far side of the stone.
I have seen this same situation quite a bit. Many surveyor place their monument next to the stone as a WITNESS. The most important thing is to document what you as the surveyor did. If you are not in a recording state, then you can only guess what the person did. Even being in a state where all surveys must be filed, I still see this done with any explanation.
Typically the center of the stone holds (some use high point). It would be nice to make an "+" or drill to mark your location for the next guy.
I would personally tie out that stone's location, make a mark on the top, bury it deeper and then place the capped iron over the marked stone and record all of this. I understand that many will never do this extra work.
I wrote a story about this years ago that was published in The American Surveyor:
http://www.amerisurv.com/PDF/TheAmericanSurveyor_Penry_July-August2004.pdf
We even had the State Surveyor's Office at one time moving the stone, placing their brass cap in concrete where the stone was and then placing the stone next to their cap. They left NO DETAILS in their notes and it was sort of an internal procedure of theirs. Some used the brass cap and others said the stone always holds and used the stone.
Below is a photo of a situation where a marked GLO 1/4 corner was on its side and placed in concrete next to the corner fence post. I made the conclusion that the stone was removed, the post set, and then the stone placed in the concrete. I monumented the fence corner by notching the cap.
> A couple of current threads mentioned stones and rebars beside or over them. That reminded me of this picture. The plat just says "Found stone." The post is old, and the wire newer than the capped rod.
>
> I haven't measured to see where he measured to. Where do you think he measured?
>
> If I were a LS and found a stone next to an old corner post, I would have figured the post had been set in place of the stone and the stone reset beside the post to indicate its origin. Or maybe the post was set beside the undisturbed stone. I sure wouldn't have set a rod on the far side of the stone.
This is where proper investigation and documentation is important. Did the LS who set the rebar investigate if the stone was markig the undisturbed corner? Who knows. Is a few tenths really that important? Maybe, maybe not.
But then again, documentation cannot always prevent idiosy. I can show you corners where the BLM finds a GLO stone, sets an iron pipe and brass cap alongside the stone, clearly stating so in the notes, and many modern following surveyors repeatedly measure to the brass cap, calling out the corner as being marked by the brass cap, the whole time ignoring the existant stone which IS the corner. Go figure.
I have always believed that the manual instructed us, when upgrading a recovered GLO or BLM monument that had been set to reference a corner to set the new monument at the corner location based on the recovered evidence, then set the original monument along side the new monument as the reference. I have always believed that is what was done, unless the recovery notes stated that they set a new monument alongside the undisturbed original as a reference point, without such a note I hold the new because I have been instructed to assume that the BLM followed their own instructions.
jud
Whenever I find a monument that can't be detected with a magnetic locator I usually set some sort of metal object next to it so the next person can find it.
And I document what I did/set on the plat.
In a recording State, noting what you did on a filed Record of Survey or on a Recorded Partition or Subdivision Plat, "there is a large difference in those filed or recorded drawings", is what I expect to find, with that knowledge, I can choose what I will do with full knowledge and understanding what happened before. Recording States don't seem to have the extent of the problems that non recording States seem to have, probably because we can research what happened before and as time passes there is more and more information required to be in those records. From looking at 1970 and before survey records and those of more recent efforts it is easy to recognize the value of making Boundary Surveys available to the public and to surveyors who follow. I may see what you did on your Survey and the whys used but I am not forced to agree with it or follow that lead, granted, I best have good defensible reasoning to reject all or part of previous work. Those Surveys filed in the public records for all to see, over time, makes for better surveyors. This State passed the filing Statutes in 1947, smart move and wonder of wonders, no one was killed or maimed and Surveying has not gone extinct because of that Statute preserving survey records.
jud
From what I've read in the past 30 hours
The corner MUST BE directly below the dimple or sharpie mark.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
From what I've read in the past 30 hours
Whats the matter cow, is your cud stuck?
jud
From what I've read in the past 30 hours
That is an entertaining thing to watch. Dang cows sometimes act like pigs and try to outeat every other cow at the feedbunk. Then they suck some right down the old windpipe. They normally whirl around, start hunching up, walk stiff legged and through their head and neck around until the spewing begins. One does not want to be TOO CLOSE when the volcano finally erupts. Only once did I ever see one collapse to the ground before the volcano hit.
The very important part of placing metal next to a non-metal monument is to place the top of the metal a few inches BELOW the top of the non-metal object. Let the metal get them to the true monument but not fool them into trying to use it in place of the true monument.
I'd locate the stone unless there is some record that states he placed his pin at the found position and reset the stone alongside, and I'd also call him to see if that's what he did. You could also talk to other surveyors and find out if that was his MO.
Here's one example:
In your picture, the cap could be stamped 0.8 (or whatever) and an arrow toward the stone to remove all doubt.
and even more fun is this one:
I say just go with the one that has a dot.
:good: :party:
> and even more fun is this one:
> I say just go with the one that has a dot.
Now add this little gem and you could have 3 metallic monuments within a 1 foot diameter circle. :'(
55-1608. (3) When nonmetallic corner monuments were set in a survey conducted by an agency of the United States government, the corner location shall be remonumented with a monument conforming to the provisions of section 54-1227, Idaho Code, and shall be surmounted with a cap of such material and size that can be permanently and legibly marked as prescribed by the manual of surveying instructions issued by the United States department of the interior, bureau of land management, including the license number of the professional land surveyor responsible for placing the monument. Monuments shall be marked such that measurements between them may be made to the nearest one-tenth (0.1) foot.
Maybe we could call this a statutorially required pin cushion????
I read that a few times and I don't get it. Are they saying you leave the stone in place and add a metallic monument alongside it within .1'? Now that makes no sense. If you wish to add a new monument then put it where the stone was and bury the stone alongside. One corner, one monument!
It sounds like you're prescribed from doing that.
It says that the corner location "shall be remonumented". That implies to me that you need to reference out the government monument and remonument it with a new (metallic) monument...? Or am I misunderstanding? It doesn't sound like a pincushioning order to me. If you dig up the original, maybe it should be buried below the new one.?
Could you bury a couple of magnets next to the existing one or maybe even attach magnets to the existing one below the ground a little bit?
It says, "corner location shall be remonumented", not referenced with a metallic monument.
jud
I like to place several different types of iron markers around a capped pin that I find and accept, just so others can find it and not be confused.
> I read that a few times and I don't get it. Are they saying you leave the stone in place and add a metallic monument alongside it within .1'? Now that makes no sense. If you wish to add a new monument then put it where the stone was and bury the stone alongside. One corner, one monument!
>
> It sounds like you're prescribed from doing that.
From the plain language, we are to replace the stone (which is the actual corner I presume) with a new monument (minimum 1/2" x 24" long), and place a stamped cap (as prescribed by BLM Manual). Where, for example at the corner in your picture, unless we are to remove the iron pipe and the BLM pipe, we would create the 3 monument pin-cushion. Do we even want to ask if it would be kosher to remove a BLM monument???? :-O
As for: "Monuments shall be marked such that measurements between them
may be made to the nearest one-tenth (0.1) foot." Who knows what goes thru the minds of those writing such idiosy. I'm afraid to ask the PTB.
