Where did this come from:

The corallary is: You cannot grant away rights other than those you actually possess.

If the property came to you without mineral rights, for instance, you cannot grant those mineral rights to anyone. Only if you somehow later acquire the mineral rights, can you include them in the bundle of rights being granted to another party.

This is a legal issue first and a survey issue second.

I agree Holy Cow on most of what you post!

But that is not the context in which the statement is being used here.

Keith

Have used that exact expression in court, none the less, in reference to someone trying to pass off owing land in another patent other than the one listed on his deed.

Used a variation of that when told by a land owner that he was going to sue me and my client. I responded "you do not have the authority to sue anyone over that land because you do not have any valid deed or title to the property".

It says pretty much sums up everything once you think about it.

"origin unknown"

A Harris,

Your statements are correct, but not on point to how the statement is made in survey arguments.

It is clear, that the intent of the statement is that since the landowner owns a specific described piece of property that might have boundaries marked; the senior line marking that boundary is forever straight and any attempt to survey an adjacent piece of property can never cross that line.

Now that makes it an absolute rule that the instrument line is forever straight and no surveyor can establish a junior corner monument that is not on that line.

I know for a fact that my junior corner monuments are probably not on the instrument straight line that I intended to set them on, and somebody is going to come along and move my monuments to the line that it was supposed to be on?

I don't think so!

Linebenders example shows the argument very well and some will never accept a monument that is across the senior line by a half a foot.

I don't think so!

I think the term is very flippant, some have heard it and think it is cute, some have read it and believe it......and have not thought about it in any serious concept of what it actually means.

If it means that a senior line is forever senior and any monument found to be off that line can be ignored, then land surveying becomes easier.

I don't think so!

Keith

I have to imagine that the phrase came from some court case and probably was in context of the decision as stated?

Or maybe from one of the national speakers along with the bogus subdivision of section theories?

Some of this stuff just has to be thought through and determine if it is real or not!

Keith

Let's make it real simple

So Keith, since you seem to believe some one can sell something they don't own, send me a check for $100,000 and tell me what property you'd like to own and I'll get a quit claim deed drawn up and sell you all my right, title, and interest to that land.

But wait, there's that pesky Statute of Frauds having things to say about selling what you don't own.

Let's make it real simple

You can't even sell your soul to the Devil because God owns all souls.

It's in the Bible somewhere. Maybe Ezekiel. Can't get more basic than that.

Let's make it real simple

I guess your method of surveying would be simple!

Nobody but nobody and can set a monument that is not set with a micrometer to make sure it is exactly on line.

Expert measurers dream survey concept!

Any idea where this statement came from?

Let's make it real simple

The concept is correct when referring to "what is the boundary". For example if I own lot 3, I cannot sell any part of lot 4 which I have no right title or interest in.

However, far too many surveyors mis-use the concept when referring to "where is the boundary". (After all, isn't this the question we surveyors are supposed to be answering?) This is because those surveyors have been taught that all lines are perfectly straight, and if not monumented perfectly to the nearest .04' or whatever other "magical and mythical" distance they dream up, they must correct the "mistake". Where they also get confused is when they cannot or will not see the difference between an original survey and a resurvey/retracement.

Here's one concept the Rivers court did get right.

RIVERS v. LOZEAU
539 So.2d 1147 (1989)

"First, the surveyor can, in the first instance, lay out or establish boundary lines within an original division of a tract of land which has theretofore existed as one unit or parcel. In performing this function, he is known as the "original surveyor" and when his survey results in a property description used by the owner to transfer title to property that survey has a certain special authority in that the monuments set by the original surveyor on the ground control over discrepancies within the total parcel description and, more importantly, control over all subsequent surveys attempting to locate the same line.
Second, a surveyor can be retained to locate on the ground a boundary line which has theretofore been established. When he does this, he "traces the footsteps" of the "original surveyor" in locating existing boundaries. Correctly stated, this is a "retracement" survey, not a resurvey, and in performing this function, the second and each succeeding surveyor is a "following" or "tracing" surveyor and his sole duty, function and power is to locate on the ground the boundaries corners and boundary line or lines established by the original survey; he cannot establish a new corner or new line terminal point, nor may he correct errors of the original surveyor. He must only track the footsteps of the original surveyor. The following surveyor, rather than being the creator of the boundary line, is only its discoverer and is only that when he correctly locates it."

The Land Court spells it out:

Order of Importance. In general, descriptive elements referenced in deeds (“calls”) when confirmed by an on the ground survey, are given weight in the order set forth below:
a. Senior rights (a superior right or claim such as a prior conveyance)
b. Natural monuments (streams, boulders, etc.)
c. Artificial monuments (stone monuments, drill holes, pipes, buildings, etc.)
d. Record monuments (non-physical monuments), including abutter’s boundaries and layouts of streets and ways
e. Bearings (courses)
f. Distances
g. Massachusetts Coordinate System coordinates (G.L. c. 97, § 17)
h. Area

> Keith
Well, it's good to see that you didn't forget how to stir the pot while you where away.

I'd still say that you can't sell what you don't own, but what you own may be subject to redefinition.

Keith, that is precisely the point.

Actually, anyone can sell anything to anyone else, but not lawfully.

The truth of the matter is that when you do not have the title to a car, land, moto, boat, etc you can not transfer any title to anyone, sell it give it or make any transfer of any title, period.

Every time I have used that phrase, it was in or about some extremely legal matter and in court to the judge himself when asked my opinion of the matter.

😉

Norman,

Well, how about talking about survey issues while on this survey board?

It is obvious that one can't sell what one does not own and I am sure the phrase probably has good context,......whereever that maybe?

It is being bastardized on some of the posts, in my opinion and the context needs to be thought out and discussed.

That's all, just trying to make people think about what they post.

Keith

'Round here

Most deeds are quitclaim. Surprised it doesn't get abused more. Kinda like selling the Brooklyn Bridge.

'Round here

i will give you a dollar for the bridge

I've always thought it was a land title concept. If I don't have title to it I can't sell it.

Jim,

I think you are exactly right.

Keith

I agree with Jim.

The question below is whether or not the new pins encroach or if they depict the line. If the deed description for a junior parcel encroaches, then the surveyor would want to treat the encroaching corners like the old 'closing corner' concept and set it along the deed bearing and truncate it at the senior line.

If the deed calls along the same senior line, and a surveyor stakes it along the senior line, then there is no encroachment. The question is whether the senior line "bends" through those corner monuments or not. I say that only your math says it bends, and that the rebar mark the actual line as set and accepted by the owners. That is why I think it is important to publish an as-measured and a record call on my plat. I am showing that I am accepting the original record calls, and what my measurements were to the actual monuments using my equipment on a particular day (part of my supporting evidence as to why I am accepting them).

Taken from above

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Pay particular attention to the closing phrase!

That is the stated BLM policy.

Keith