0.03' 0.38' 0.70' 1.50'
Setting aside the general premise that most of us loath the idea of setting multiple monuments. There are however times in which the situation presents itself and we find ourselves with the fact that we were hired to monument a property line or corner in which an existing marker; either rouge or one that was incorrectly placed sometime in the past, near the corner you are surveying.
In the presence of existing monumentation that has been proven to be incorrect and as a retracing surveyor, do you have general rules in the establishment of new monumentation for corners/lines that your were hired to mark?
I am setting myself up for the firing squad by replying.
1. When the previous surveyor(s) has blatantly done the survey wrong by methods or not using existing monuments that he did not find. You are under no obligation to honor a surveyor's monument when he failed to do his survey correctly.
2. When you do not feel comfortable with honoring the other monument and you would have difficulty explaining your actions in court why you held a monument that you knew was in the wrong location based upon your own measurements.
3. The distance factor (0.03' 0.38' 0.70' 1.50') as to how far off you make that decision can depend upon what is being done. For instance would you honor a monument that was off by 0.53' when the boundary involved setting the face of a multi-million dollar building on the property line? You could state on your plat that the monument was off by 0.53', but guess where the building might get built!
Disclaimer: These are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect those of other beerleg.com users.
J.
Would you 'pin cushion' either of these two monuments?
I hate this sort of thing myself.... two monuments were held, across the street,a nd several were set with this sort of button pushing mentality....
> 1. When the previous surveyor(s) has blatantly done the survey wrong by methods or not using existing monuments that he did not find. You are under no obligation to honor a surveyor's monument when he failed to do his survey correctly.
>
> 2. When you do not feel comfortable with honoring the other monument and you would have difficulty explaining your actions in court why you held a monument that you knew was in the wrong location based upon your own measurements.
>
> 3. The distance factor (0.03' 0.38' 0.70' 1.50') as to how far off you make that decision can depend upon what is being done. For instance would you honor a monument that was off by 0.53' when the boundary involved setting the face of a multi-million dollar building on the property line? You could state on your plat that the monument was off by 0.53', but guess where the building might get built!
I think those are pretty good rules, Jerry. The question, though, is probably better framed not as:
"When should a surveyor set a pincushion?",
but as:
"When should a surveyor place a new monument to correctly mark a corner that some existing erroneous marker does not?"
> "When should a surveyor place a new monument to correctly mark a corner that some existing erroneous marker does not?"[and then pull all the other ones out of the ground with vice grips]
In Texas, from what I have seen, monument yanking should be the law, but only after mandatory recording is first enacted.
In California, my area, leave them as they are and file the record.
Sorry about the hijack...back to regular programming now.
> Would you 'pin cushion' either of these two monuments?
> I hate this sort of thing myself.... two monuments were held, across the street,a nd several were set with this sort of button pushing mentality....
>
>
Well, isn't the situation that you have a tract that was subdivided after a road was laid out and when the road lines are retraced, a lot corner is found not to fall on the road line? Why would you hesitate to correctly mark the lot corner on the actual road line if the marker that is 0.41' into the road will never become a corner, i.e. that the road line will never shift just because some marker was erroneously set?
Q: What is an "MHB"? Is it a "Massachusetts Highway Bound"? Is "CB" a concrete bound?
It depends.
If the existing monument was set 75 years ago in a swamp, my "tolerance" may be quite large (relatively speaking). If other existing monuments fit well together and one is "out", it may indicate a neighbor moved the monument, etc.
I guess your "tolerance" comes with experience working in your local area.
When my gut tells me to. It's not a number. It's a feeling. Experience is what it is all about.
A feeling? You are deciding to accept or reject existing monuments from a feeling? Is that how you'll defend your decision in court or to the surveyor whose pin you are rejecting?
I agree with using your experience, but I would advise to use it to make a sound decision. What if you have been doing it "wrong" all these years? That means, to me, that a surveyor could have done poor survey work for the last 30 years, and he is using his same experience to continue bad habits. (Not you, per se, not trying to be personal, but I disagree with you at least semantically.)
Correct Kent, MHB= Mass. Highway Bound, which is a granite stone bound about 10" x 10" on top and 4' deep.
The CB = Concrete Bound
now what's funny (I just returned from the site) is that the MHB does not have a drill hole, lead plug or any indication of the point that was located on the previous plan. Local Practice is that the center back of the MHB is to be held so that the whole monument is within the layout.
The CB is rectangular, 4"x8" without a drill hole either. Local Practice in this case is to use the center of the bound after scribing the diagonal's.
Using this information I was able to uncover the concrete bound at our front corner and the IP at the back corner. They checked within 0.17' so I am holing the bounds to stake the line and verify the sideline distance to the restaurant to determine how much they can expand their kitchen....
> Correct Kent, MHB= Mass. Highway Bound, which is a granite stone bound about 10" x 10" on top and 4' deep.
> The CB = Concrete Bound
Well, the weirdest part of your tale is that neither of those large markers has any sort of a station mark on it.
good lord, no! They don't use station markers on the highway's around here. We know where the road is, it's been there since about 1630 or so... probably longer counting trails instead of horse paths.
This particular layout was first done in 1901 by the state. That MHB should be located at sta 368+39.28.
> They don't use station markers on the highway's around here.
Actually, by "station mark", I mean the exact point marked, the point that you'd center an instrument or prism over.
oh, gotcha now. That's why I mentioned "local practice."
6th,
In Florida rural areas:
0.5’ If, and only if the line is occupied and accepted by adjacent owners. Regardless of the “proper location” of the corner. Now understand, this is for rural areas.
In suburban areas, that’s a whole different story, especially with hi rise buildings being constructed on zero setback lines. Therefore extreme diligence on your behalf is in accordance.
Of course, this is just my opinion. There are multitudes of Surveyors on this board that may provide a more intellectual insight to your question.
Have a great week!
Local Practice
> That's why I mentioned "local practice."
Just out of curiosity, what is the rationale behind each surveyor using or connecting to a large stone or concrete bound to need to find the center of it for himself or herself? I realize it's cold in the Winter up there, but is a shallow drill hole that much of a problem?
For those interested, Steve Gardner started a very interesting discussion on the CLSA forum about a lot corner in a recoded subdivision in California that was about 7.5 feet from where he expected it to be. 4500+ views and 195 replies. An interesting read with a couple of cold ones handy...
Kent
Like the type 1 or old wooden post monuments have that as well. In fact, I'm just tickled if I'm working on a highway with monumentation most of the time. It wasn't until the last 20 years that the type II monuments took off with txdot around here, and we haven't had a new highway in the county for 35 years, so the only type Ii mons are the ones that txdot did as widening or maintenance.
Naked Came the Type I Marker
> Like the type 1 or old wooden post monuments have that as well.
Do you mean that you don't add a station mark to one of the old Texas Highway Department Type I Right-of-Way Markers? I knew things were slack in East Texas, but still I'm shocked. :>
Standard procedure as far as I'm concerned is to at least drill a small hole in the marker as a reference point. You can set a pop rivet in it if you're feeling spunky. If not, just leave the drill hole naked.
If the precast marker is leaning, dig around it and plumb it up. If it's broken, cut the snaggled rebars, drill a hole in the stub of the marker and either set a rod and cap or a spike and washer.
Local Practice
I don't understand the practice either. I set a Drill hole in stones, I use concrete bounds with pre-drilled holes, and I'll scribe concrete; But what I won't do is set a drill hole in an MA highway bound, or a drill hole in a concrete bound that I have found.
I try not to disturb monuments set by others because then they become monuments set by me. If the previous surveyor did not make their intention clear by setting a drill hole then I will not do it for them. I do indicate what I used when I locate the monument though.. And since we have mandatory recording for any new lot lines, and voluntary recording for perimeter plans most of this gets on record....
