"I am definitely not wanting to do anything that would cause a potential liability situation. "
Really? Then get a job working for a Licensed Surveyor.
What do you expect us to say? We're a bunch of old farts making a ton of dough from our priveledged position and we want to protect it.
> "I am definitely not wanting to do anything that would cause a potential liability situation. "
>
> Really? Then get a job working for a Licensed Surveyor.
>
> What do you expect us to say? We're a bunch of old farts making a ton of dough from our priveledged position and we want to protect it.
Yes really. Well maybe not no liability but not huge liability. I don't want to be responsible for a million dollar project but marking a straight line for a fence that doesn't involve a property boundary is a pretty low risk activity. If I have small errors it isn't going to matter much and if I goof up big it is going to be painfully obvious before they get too far in building the fence.
I have a full time job. I am looking for something to do from time time on weekends and after work. The type of things I am talking about doing the clients would not want to pay enough to have a licensed surveyor in the first place so I don't see it as taking work from licensed surveyors.
My whole point of this thread was I was thinking maybe some of you have had calls from people wanting you to do things that were not really land surveying and that they were not willing or able to pay you what your time was worth to do them. In the farmer fence example they likely would not be willing to pay the going surveyor rates to do something like this as they would likely just figure out how to do it themselves but if I could go do it for $100 or something it gives me some extra cash and solves a problem for them.
> I found the rebar markers, set some stakes and connected them with a string to mark the fence line.
> Throwing the question back at you many would think your example if I marked a straight line between two existing markers along a property boundary using GPS would constitute land surveying and it very well may I don't know.
Okay, let me address your "found the rebar markers" comment. How do you know they were correct? Are you sure the rebar you found weren't moved? Were they set by a surveyor? Maybe you're sure they are correct because this was your own property. But what about the farmer who points out 2 rebar and says "There's my corners, make me a straight line with your GPS thing?" How can you verify the farmer knows they are the correct corners? You mark the line, a fence is built, and the neighbor sues. Do you really want to be in that position?
As surveyors, we've all experience situations like this. I know septic installers that purchased metal detectors to "find corners and do it ourselves", thus cutting out the surveyor. In more than one case, the corners they found were not the property corners and they had to move septic systems.
I'm not suggesting you shouldn't use your GPS, but if your being paid by someone to mark lines or buildings, you'd better be very careful.
What can I do with RTK? - Collect GIS Data (Lots of it)
[From my experience] GIS data collection. If you can find a town or a consultant or something that is doing basic GIS data collection on things like fire hydrants, park benches, streetlights, etc you can run circles around the free interns that are out there with basic GIS data collectors (handhelds running ArcPad and such). FastSurvey or equivalent on your datacollector, at least on mine, allows me to set up feature codes. Walk up to the hydrant, type HY or whatever, fill in the forms (type, color, year, etc), and by the time you are done with the data collection you can go to the next one. Export to SHP later and drop into the GIS. If you can set it up accurately, have a good spot for the base, and know how to use it, you'll be more accurate than the GIS grade units, more productive, and you'll be able to gather data where they can't. (Of course you can't compete with free, either.)
Don't do anything that can be confused with boundary work. Apply all the disclaimers to what you are doing. Do not claim any sort of accuracy measurements that you can't back up. Make sure you are not in violation of any surveying licensing laws. Make sure you have your radios licensed, and have a copy at the RTK base. And make sure you are only doing this for "inventorying purposes".
The GIS world in general doesn't even know this sort of equipment exists, and most would not know what to do with it, or how to use it.
I'm sorry, but I don't get it...
Someone putting points on the ground to aid in the placement of a fence is required to be a licensed surveyor? In the states I am licensed in -- Alabama, Florida & Georgia (surveying, not fence building) -- I am required to report anything involving illegal or unethical surveying activities, that I am aware of, to the Board. I see fence builders, from time to time, in the process of trying to determine where to place a fence, who I know do not have a surveying license. Is this somehow considered a surveying activity, and must I report these activities to the Board?
> I have access to a RTK system. I know how to use it but I am not a licensed surveyor. Are there any things I can use it for to make some side money that would be legal for me to do without a license?
>
> Obviously I can't do land surveying but I was wondering if there was some kind of need in some industry that I might could do a few hours of work here and there using the system to make extra money. Possibly fill some kind of need that real surveyors don't want to fool with or that doesn't pay enough for a licensed surveyor to do it.
Not much....might as well send the equipment directly to me. 😛
> > I found the rebar markers, set some stakes and connected them with a string to mark the fence line.
>
> > Throwing the question back at you many would think your example if I marked a straight line between two existing markers along a property boundary using GPS would constitute land surveying and it very well may I don't know.
>
> Okay, let me address your "found the rebar markers" comment. How do you know they were correct? Are you sure the rebar you found weren't moved? Were they set by a surveyor? Maybe you're sure they are correct because this was your own property. But what about the farmer who points out 2 rebar and says "There's my corners, make me a straight line with your GPS thing?" How can you verify the farmer knows they are the correct corners? You mark the line, a fence is built, and the neighbor sues. Do you really want to be in that position?
>
> As surveyors, we've all experience situations like this. I know septic installers that purchased metal detectors to "find corners and do it ourselves", thus cutting out the surveyor. In more than one case, the corners they found were not the property corners and they had to move septic systems.
>
> I'm not suggesting you shouldn't use your GPS, but if your being paid by someone to mark lines or buildings, you'd better be very careful.
Very good advice and point well taken. In my case we had just recently bought the property and had a survey done. The rebar was put there by the surveyor and it still has the plastic caps with their name and even the pin flags beside it. I could see what you are talking about with the rebars being moved or whatever happening though in other scenarios.
I guess if I end up doing this I will have a simple agreement that customers sign stating that I am not a surveyor, I am not locating any boundaries, and that I am simply marking a straight line between points that they show me.
I need another line of work!
I havent seen RTK equipment cost 100K in a very long time. Even two Trimble R10's plus accessories are only in the 60k range.
You would be dividing the land into different parcels.
Even though it may be for agriculture use, a taxing agency could determine each section as a different taxing entity.
Eventually, the different parcels could also have different owners.
There is no limit to what a person lays out on the ground can become.
Bottom line, when you use surveying methods to stake a line, fence, ditch, etc that could eventually become a boundary, that is land surveying.
In most states, the owner of the property can do it for himself.
When he hires someone to do it, they need a license.
0.02
I guess I can see the anxiety of my fellow surveyors about this fence business...but I'm not sure I see the illegality of it.
A land owner says "I'm going to build a fence from point "A" to point "B" and I think it's all on my property and I don't want to pay for a boundary survey". Then he hires someone to help him keep his fence straight.
Isn't it on him that he didn't get a boundary survey? Can't he hire whoever he wants that might have the expertise to keep his fence straight?
If Mr. Stumpy is knowledgeable about surveying, he might have a responsibility to the land owner to state that he is only helping him stake the fence in a straight line between points, but that he can't ascertain whether or nots in within the property. He doesn't assure that the landowner owns the property, and he isn't expert in deciding where the property is.
The only thing stumpy is responsible for is that he has the expertise to stake a straight line per the contract. And if he fails, he is responsible for the breach of contract. That's a civil matter.
Sorry, I don't have any good ideas about how you can make some extra money with the RTK unit (back to topic here).
I agree with you completely.
Using GPS does not require a license, or should it. We too often forget that GPS wasn't conceived for our benefit.
GPS is a tool. A fella could keep a fence straight with an old transit too. Building a straight fence does not require a surveying license.
If the user represents the fence as being staked on the property line I think you could be entering a "gray area" in many jurisdictions. Consult your statutes and administrative code to see what constitutes the practice of land surveying.
> The only thing stumpy is responsible for is that he has the expertise to stake a straight line
Hmm...Stake a straight line with RTK
Paging Mr. McMillan; would Mr. McMillan please pick up the white courtesy phone. 😀
So these two big landowners share a common boundary along a north/south quarter line and they both agree on the identity of the north and south ends, each being marked by an original monument of long standing repute. Now they want to build a fence and contact a local surveyor who quotes them a fee which sounds a bit high and after snooping around on Craigslist they see an advertisement from Mr. Stumpy who says he will stake a fence line between any points as described by the land owners. No promises on the boundary, only that his points are on the line between the marks indicated by the landowners, within a quarter foot. The landowners agree and a contract is written agreeing to the terms. Is Mr. Stumpy guilty of land surveying without a license?
> So these two big landowners share a common boundary along a north/south quarter line and they both agree on the identity of the north and south ends, each being marked by an original monument of long standing repute. Now they want to build a fence and contact a local surveyor who quotes them a fee which sounds a bit high and after snooping around on Craigslist they see an advertisement from Mr. Stumpy who says he will stake a fence line between any points as described by the land owners. No promises on the boundary, only that his points are on the line between the marks indicated by the landowners, within a quarter foot. The landowners agree and a contract is written agreeing to the terms. Is Mr. Stumpy guilty of land surveying without a license?
I wouldn't think so but I don't know. Since a property boundary is involved I would be hesitant to do it but I will throw the question back at you. Exact same scenario but they contact Joe's fencing on Craigslist and say we want a fence built from here to here. Joes crew builds the fence useing line of sight or rifle scopes or strings or whatever they normally do. Are they surveying without a license? They did the same thing in marking the line.
> "Carpenters of the world, drop your tapes and step out, you are taking measurements, hence you are surveying." :-@
You laugh!!
Sounds like the time I WAS a carpenter and the guy wanted us to build his new upper story with a given height such that the roof would have such-and-such and angle with N inches of overhang on the eves. No one knew how to calc everything up but me. Cut-angles, rake lengths beam height, etc....
I mentioned about it on the ancient "other board" and got excoriated for engineering without a license by several members. Don't know if they were just messing with me but it sure seemed rather serious and a bit personal on my end.
I say call a spade a spade .. We do fence surveys for fence building . Which includes verfication of the property lines and a map at the end..
The city requires this for a fence permit . So in my State you would be surveying .. Plus you would be taking work from surveyors who pay employees , insurance, rent etc. ..stick to your full time job sell Amway on the weekends..
Also your employer can be held responsible for lending you the equipment and you wonk something up and get sued.
> So these two big landowners share a common boundary along a north/south quarter line and they both agree on the identity of the north and south ends, each being marked by an original monument of long standing repute. Now they want to build a fence and contact a local surveyor who quotes them a fee which sounds a bit high and after snooping around on Craigslist they see an advertisement from Mr. Stumpy who says he will stake a fence line between any points as described by the land owners. No promises on the boundary, only that his points are on the line between the marks indicated by the landowners, within a quarter foot. The landowners agree and a contract is written agreeing to the terms. Is Mr. Stumpy guilty of land surveying without a license?
No. it does not require a surveying license to mark a fence that is to be built, as long as Stumpy isn't representing himself as finding the boundary line.
For those of you that think otherwise, the more relevant question would be, are the landowners surveying without a license? "So these two big landowners share a common boundary along a north/south quarter line and they both agree on the identity of the north and south ends, each being marked by an original monument of long standing repute."
We (licensed surveyors) tend to get all worked up into a lather when others (non-licensed) use "our tools". The statutes in the states I'm licensed in do not define "land surveying" as anyone who "uses equipment that is typically used by surveyors", or anyone who receives pay for using "surveying equipment", or "measuring with surveying equipment". Read your statutes and use common sense. It isn't the use of the tools, it is what we hold ourselves out to be to the public and what our service/product is and/or its authoritative use.
So anyone who builds a fence in North Carolina without a current boundary survey performed by a licensed land surveyor is breaking the law?
Somehow I doubt it.
Never said that .. Said the city where I live requires a survey to get a permit for a fence. You can build one with out a permit , but you will be removing it at your own cost..survey requires a land surveyor.. Not a jack leg with a rtk.
Yup, Brian. I tend to agree with you. I was hoping for a better response and seeing at this point over 150 have read what I posted, I am surprised. That being said, I can only speak to the three states that I have held licenses in and I realize that others may have laws that are more restrictive. Florida comes to mind as one with many more types of surveying that are covered by their statutes.
Certainly what Stumpy is proposing does not come to close to the egregiousness of a licensed land surveyor crossing into a neighboring state and actually doing land surveying w/o a license in that state. Even if he is hungry:-S Never got that one!
