Im trying to locate survey markers on a piece of vacant property in southern california rural land.
The lots have likely been surveyed and marked,between the 60's and 90's.
Q-1 ive used a metal detector(typical relic detector) without luck.
Are there any technical devices that can locate the steel -rod corner markers ?
Q-2 How do surveyors locate them when buried?...other than by written landmark.
Q-3 Since land mark notations in the surveyors records may be missing,I would think at some point they have embedded some kind of device to alert an electronic handheld receiver, when they are within a certain distance of a marker.
Q-4 i suppose that would be something that only surveyors have and or the cost of one is so high that its cheaper to have it surveyed by a licensed surveyor?
You should definitely call a surveyor to do it. Even if you find the markers, there is no guarantee they're in the right spot (the markers could have been hit, damaged, bent, pulled out by landscapers or utility workers and shoved back in, etc.) You could end up causing a big problem.
That being said, we use surveyors metal detectors. There is a thread about them not too far down, the cheapest of which would be about $520. We would also look on adjoining lots and try to line the ones we do find up to make sure we're looking in the right spot on the property in question. (This works in an urban/suburban setting - not sure where you're looking...) Depending on what you're trying to do, you will probably need to hire a surveyor at some point, so why not just do it properly from the beginning?
I don't know of any "electronic devices" that are in property corners.
Surveyors use a wide array of devices and methods to locate property corners. We use tie distances, existing evidence, and deed interpretation to locate property corners.
The metal detectors that surveyors use are not the "relic type" metal detectors. They are pretty expensive, and a little more specialized as they search our more ferrous objects that are generally used for property corners.
The first thing I would do is get copies of the assessor's parcel maps which may graphically index any surveys on record but this varies by county. Some county surveyors keep a separate map index. Palm Springs is in Riverside County which I am not familiar with how they do it. Once you get the book and page of the surveys that are on file you can get copies of those. It is a waste of time to look for monuments when you don't know what and where to look for them.
There are no electronic devices, monuments are mostly pipes or rebar driven into the ground with some type of tag. Some more important corners have a brass cap.
Surveyors use expensive magnetic locators which are especially designed for detecting ferrous metal objects oriented vertically in the ground. Using them is an art in itself. I can teach someone to play chess in 5 minutes but it takes years to become good at it, it's the same with surveying and finding markers. If you find a marker how do you know what it means without knowing how to read and interpret the documents (deeds and maps) which helps to tell what they mean.
Many problems have been caused by property owners misinterpreting what found monuments mean which can result in the loss of land if the problem goes undetected for enough years.
I agree with Dan's comments, "You should definitely call a surveyor to do it." and "You could end up causing a big problem." In all states the practice of surveying requires a licensed surveyor. Acquiring that license requires years of training and experience. Additionally in most states surveyors are required to evaluate the agreement of found points (iron pins, iron pipes, concrete monuments, railroad spikes, masonry nails, etc. etc.) with your deed, deeds of all your neighbors and historic points described in previous deeds of all of the above.
I was once called on to survey a small residential lot. No corner markers were called for in any of the current deeds. Errors in the record deeds forced me to trace property transfers back nearly 100 years to resolve two original farm boundaries and all subsequent sales out of those farms. The developer had died without selling the lot in question. The ownership of the property was being contested by three adjoining owners. The only way to resolve this would have been a lengthy court case and the attorney involved advised the client to "let sleeping dogs lay where they are!" waking them will only get you bitten.
I have no problem with the idea of a land owner using a magnetic locator to see what he can find. It is the actions taken upon the finding or lack of it that cause concern. Do not remove a monument from the ground. Most monuments mark a property corner that is common to two or more parties.
Do not rely upon a monument you've found, unless you have sufficient basis for that reliance. Exercise caution, and do not assume anything.
All that said, you can pick up a fairly good magnetic locator on ebay for about $250 (or more) depending on age, condition, brand. I agree with Dave that using them is an art, but with a little practice good results can be achieved in many situations. The difficult situations are where an iron pipe is against a wire fence, for example, or where it is buried below trash, steel junk, etc.
Oh, and by the way, I think Berntsen is selling or developing some sort of electronic marker identification device, which can be "read" by a surveyor to determine the history of the marker....I don't think the ID device is any help in finding the marker however, as the methods described above are the most common.
Just curious where it is. if i were to do something requiring a certified doc of it,,then a state licensed survey would be cheap insurance.
Thx
> Q-4 i suppose that would be something that only surveyors have and or the cost of one is so high that its cheaper to have it surveyed by a licensed surveyor?
in q4 - you have hit on the answer (well partly).
the metal detector is only incidental to finding the boundary. The "something" that only the licensed land surveyor posseses, is the skill set required to know where to look, and how to look for a boundary marker, and if some thing is found, how to identify it as being a boundary marker . Acquiring this skill set comes with a combination of training, mentoring and experience.
And yes, the cost of acquiring this skill set are usually too high for an ordinary land owner, so its cheaper to have it surveyed by a licensed surveyor.
Im suprised in this day of amazing devices,and the value and uses for property there isnt something as I described. A hand held device that reads the implanted piece in the rebar.
how far away from the rebar before the magnetic device detects it?
When I locate a lot for sale i head out to look at the site before calling the realtor. They dont ever know where the stakes are anyway and rarely have a clue where the lines are,and I hate company when Im thinkin. If I really like the property sometimes knowing where the stakes lie make a huge difference,
however,if one has to be within one foot of the rebar to detect it,then that wouldnt be too easy when considering rocky,hilly land. It would be too hard to estimate a line close enough to the next stake especially if it was several hundred feet up hills down ravines,over boulders.
It could be done though on flatter smaller parcels like an acre up to 5 ac for eg.
Question:
So it would depend on how far away from the rebar can the magnatometer can detect it.
If you turn the gain up you can be 20' away but then you find everything else too.
The locator is. Only for pinpointing once you know where it should be. I can run 1600' of line with a silva ranger compass and be within 20' but I know how to do it. A staff compass will get me within a few feet assuming no local attraction.
> Question:
> So it would depend on how far away from the rebar can the magnatometer can detect it.
Depends. That is the art of using a locator. If you cranked up the sensitivity, you can have an indication of iron from 5+feet away, but there is often a lot ferrous material around, and that goes back to the art. Using a handheld GPS should get you close enough to search.
In the end though, you still just find a rebar, and so what? Unless you have documentation or existing occupation to support it, it is just a rebar.
And if you do have evidence, if you can get within a foot or two you don't need the rebar/corner monument.
All of us know fences built to a random rebar someone assumed was the corner, and we find the tagged monument a couple of feet away...or a dozen of feet.
I would say that a locator would be a good investment for you. Then, if it is a real issue (location of corner), we do a lot of work where the sale/purchase of a property is dependent on the results of our survey. (Feasibility studies come in lots of sizes.)
Lastly, the real estate agent might know nothing, but the owner, or neighbors often know exactly where their corners are. That is one of the "tricks" a surveyor uses.
> Im trying to locate survey markers on a piece of vacant property in southern california rural land.
> The lots have likely been surveyed and marked,between the 60's and 90's.
>
>
> Q-1 ive used a metal detector(typical relic detector) without luck.
> Are there any technical devices that can locate the steel -rod corner markers ?
> Q-2 How do surveyors locate them when buried?...other than by written landmark.
> Q-3 Since land mark notations in the surveyors records may be missing,I would think at some point they have embedded some kind of device to alert an electronic handheld receiver, when they are within a certain distance of a marker.
>
> Q-4 i suppose that would be something that only surveyors have and or the cost of one is so high that its cheaper to have it surveyed by a licensed surveyor?
A-1. Magnetic locator.
A-2. Shovel.
A-3. Dreams and Sci Fi. They put a band within vicinity of utility lines that contains metal fibers that are connected to certain ground points. When the utility locators add a charge / signal they can easily find the utility trench in question. This method would add a substantial charge (literally and figuratively) to the fees and costs associated with setting the marker and in all likelihood, when one returns after a decade or two they would find the system in a state of failure if an excavation severed the line.
I do not see the future adding a device to the monument as we are already putting so much data on the various geodetic datums that allow for the easy recreation with GPS.
A-4. DIY survey is never a good idea.
Someone on this board had a dog that would dig them up.
That was Greta. We never figured out how she did it. My theory is that she could smell the plastic flagging or caps. She found a few brass ones, too. Someone else had the theory that it was coyote pee, since they pee on anything they can't eat or chew up. The coyotes do seem to chew up the plastic caps.
I am not a surveyor. Instead, I am a former professional real estate investor that often had to locate survey rebar just like you are doing. When I would find capped rebar about where I expected it to be and the caps all had the same license number then I would conclude there was a high likelihood that I had found the corners for that piece of land. Was I 100% certain I had found the corners? No. But I was reasonably certain and that was all I wanted.
How are you presently locating areas to search with your metal detector?
Are you using a hand compass along with the bearings from the survey to try and follow the lines?
If so, do you know the concept "basis of bearing"?
"Basis of bearing" is a crucial aspect about surveys that the general public does not know. Note that you are hearing about this from a non-surveyor.
The bearings on a survey are almost never based on true north nor are they based on magnetic north. Instead, the surveyor picks two points (often a section corner and 1/4 corner) and assumes the bearing between them is true north. All of the bearing on the survey are based on that assumption. The difference between true north and assumed north can easily be several degrees!
If you are using the bearings from the survey without adjusting them for "basis of bearing" then you are almost guaranteed to fail.
Does the county have an online GIS?
If so, do the parcel lines seem to line up fairly well with visible use lines on the aerial?
If so, can you get approximate latitude longitude coordinates from that GIS?
If so, then those coordinates should help you zero in on areas to search with the metal detector.
Note - some online GIS display state plane coordinates. You will need to convert to lat lng.
Does the county or state have survey grade coordinates for any of the section corners or 1/4 corners referenced on your survey? If you have accurate coords for such a known starting point then there are various programs that can do waypoint projection and produce approximate coords for other points on the survey. Of course you still have the "basis of bearing" issue.
Or can you start by finding any section corner and 1/4 corner shown on your survey and collecting coords with your consumer GPS? If you can get consumer GPS coords for the endpoints used for "basis for bearing" then you can easily find an online tool that gives you the bearing between those two points. Use that as an approximation for the "basis of bearing" adjustment.
Be certain to get a copy of the parcel map for your area. If there are two corners fairly close to each other you must find them both in order to know which is which.
Get a 300 ft tape on a big reel (Home Depot, etc). If you find a stake it is sometimes quickest to measure to the next spot where you want to search with a metal detector.
Ask your local rental shop if they have the type of metal detector that is tuned for locating rebar.
Here is one example: http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/View_Catalog_Page.asp?mi=58191
Also, some shops that sell surveyor supplies also rent these detectors.
Joseph Elfelt
As a surveyor, I often take a metal detector, and PACE off the distances, and use a handheld compass, and metal detector, and Then apply the shovel, and metal detector.
THEN, I set up surveying equipment, and obtain positions, on the monuments I find.
I call the first step, RECON.
Then, I call the second step, "Tying Stuff".
Then, the 3rd one comes along, analysis. That is determining relative positioning. And, then DECISIONS, and often go back, and DIG some more, to find the stuff I missed, then tie it too, then back to the drawing board, to analyze some more. Then, I either set more markers, or refurbish some of the existing stuff.
Another step is to get the adjoiner's deeds, and COMPARE them, against the found momuments. (Often I do this as a part of STEP 1, so I kind of know where to look)
The FIRST step, of doing RECON you could do, with a Good Suunto compass, and maybe a 100' hardware store tape, and a good surveyor grade metal detector. But, don't make yourself believe you have a "Survey". You have a RECON. A recon can be real handy, and useful, and help you get an idea what you are looking at. A classic case that comes to mind, was a lot survey, whereby all the lots were 50' x 150'. Now, what the poor guy did not know, was that the lot next door (To the back) had a 10' strip ADDED to his lot. That is, he owned HIS lot, and an additional 10' of the neighbor's lot. And, so he finds during recon this 10' off corner, and USES it to build his home, assuming it to be the actual lot corner, when in fact it was the deed to the 10' strip. And, he now has his home a little over on his neighbor, all because he wanted to save a bit, and USE a preliminary recon, as a survey. He wound up having to purchase a triangle, 10' wide at the back, all the way to zero, (They got the actual lot corner in the front) and paid a PREMIUM price for the strip. Because it rendered the lot next door much less suitable, to build on.
So, I have no problem with you doing a PRELIMINARY RECON, to get an IDEA of what you are doing. But, don't call it a survey. And, don't trust what you are doing, unless you go through all the steps, of a REAL survey. At some point you will have MORE time, and money in equipment in this than you really want, and that is where you need a survey. They don't call us surveyors for nothing.
I hope this gives you some idea of the process of determining land boundaries.
Nate
Joseph,
In my area, north on survey maps is based upon record bearing contained in previous deeds, astronomic north, solar observations, or GPS observations.
The states that I am licensed in require a reproducible basis of bearings as a part of their minimum standards for land surveys
I understand that that you were trying to help the original poster, but making a blanket statement that surveyors assume a basis of bearings can mislead the public.
Respectfully,
Jimmy Cleveland
Jimmy, that is a good point. Thanks for the clarification.
Also, for the OP:
Carefully look at all the fine print on the survey. The "basis of bearing" might be stated on the survey. I say "might" because in some states this info was not required to be stated on older surveys. Michigan is an example.
If you find a bearing on a survey between a section corner and 1/4 corner that is N 0D E or N 90D E, then that line is most likely the basis of bearing.
Joseph
> Im suprised in this day of amazing devices,and the value and uses for property there isnt something as I described. A hand held device that reads the implanted piece in the rebar.
>
As you can imagine, such devices and systems would cost a significant amount of money, not only for the parts, but the cost to place and replace them on every land corner. Are landowners willing to spend the extra money? I doubt it, as this thread is evidence. Instead of investing a modest of amount of money to hire a professional to find property corners properly, you seem to be wanting to go the cheaper "do it yourself" route.
Heck,the vast majority of landowners refuse to even consider paying a professional to find the corners of the most significant investments of their lives, are they really going to be willing to shell out even more money for new devices to locate corners that they are unwilling to pay for in the first place? Somehow I doubt it.
