Paul D, post: 395964, member: 323 wrote: I agree with others who have said that having the final cost be so much more than the original estimate is a serious issue. Additionally, if surveyor 1 did not do enough work to defend his determination the first time, that is on him. Seems like an "oh crap, somebody else surveyed it?! now we have to actually do a retracement!!" situation. All that said, in my part of the world (colonial states) that 3k for a small boundary is not out of the norm.
I bet you are right on the oh shit . His fee does seem steep. I just retraced a warring neighbor, many corners, couple acres, had to reset a few for $2500 with a nice exhibit (usually not done, we are not a recording state) and the client is still not happy with the bill.
Lostinohio ask the surveyor to discuss the charges.
I don't understand why so many jump to the conclusion that he specialzed in construction, in my market a lot of us do boundary, engineering and staking. I prefer to do boundary all day but staking pays the bills. Quite the conclusion jump , if stepfather is a democrat, suffice to say the surveyor is too?
I must change location from Belgium to the US. 6600$ for a job :dizzy:
I guess that the finilisation and requirements are a little different than on this side but the time on site is the same everywere around the world i quess.
Should have signed an agreement with the guy, It's your property. When someone calls that is not the owner or buyer I won't discuss cost. Now on the other hand he probably should of done this first....
LostInOhio, post: 395933, member: 12205 wrote: They did have to do research on my and my neighbor's deeds and went down a few houses each direction from my intersection to verify points, but the price seems extremely excessive.
There is no reasonable way to evaluate everything that went wrong here. A few red flags do stand out.
An owner should not hire a Professional, and a Professional should not work without a clear understanding of what the needs are. The terms should be reduced to writing before the research even starts. It's too late to go back and do that, but it's not too late to sit down with them and try to work something out that recognizes a failure by everyone.
When a survey discovers a potential issue, the OWNERS drive the bus. A solid Professional can guide that process without feeding the lawyers. Again, too late.
Your very narrow path out of this money pit is likely mediation. If you go down the legal path the Courts will probably require it. Do not pick one from a list and make an appointment. Ask your Attorney if he knows one who can extract solutions with some degree of success. Check your emotions and remember not to spend 35k defending $800 worth of property.
Best if luck, Tom
LostInOhio, post: 395933, member: 12205 wrote: He says no it was $3700 more to draw up the survey and locate the neighbors new stakes and the initial $2980 just was to place the stakes.
That statement has me baffled. He didn't draw up the survey before? And what does it take to "locate the neighbor's stakes"? Making a plat and locating some additional pieces of wood should be less than $1,000 since they already did the boundary survey. No research, survey's done, they even did "additional research on the first survey since they found some things don't jive.
So he charged me $6680 to do a survey on a 0.66 acre lot. They did have to do research on my and my neighbor's deeds and went down a few houses each direction from my intersection to verify points, but the price seems extremely excessive. Can I get your opinions on this?
Yes, good taking into account to do the research. Of course you always have to do some research to do a boundary, but it sounds like they had to do additional research since they weren't getting a good warm-and-fuzzy with the research boundary and the evidence on the ground. But also, like someone said before, there should not be additional research when they came back out because the initial survey should be positive enough to defend in court. If they did a half-assed survey the first time, that should not have been $2800. Maybe something is lost in the translation between what they said they did and what you say they said they did. (Not calling anyone out for lying, And if it was miscommunication, they surveyor should have put it in terms that the layman can understand so they can feel better about shilling out the bucks)
$6700 is not outside the realm of possibility for a 2/3rds acre lot in a difficult rural area here. The County Surveyor review fee would probably be somewhere in the neighborhood of $500 to $1000 but some Counties have very low fixed fees, as low as $150 in order to encourage compliance with the filing requirement.
As others have said, the communication between Surveyor and Client is really lacking. If the Stepfather's go to firm is a big box Engineering firm then their crew rates are probably over $200/hour. And the reality is you need a small-time Boundary expert.
At this point, try to de-escalate the situation with your neighbor. Boundary litigation is very expensive what with Attorney fees and expensive Boundary experts. Expect to spend north of $50,000 each for a fully litigated boundary resolution. The neighbor's Surveyor may be correct, he does better fit the possession line of the neighbor which Courts like. Courts like a solution which harmonizes with the possession lines of the various owners if they can get it over a technically correct solution which throws everyone onto their neighbor's lot.
I agree with Karoly. we get caught up in "who's right" so much sometimes that we loose sight of what is practical. Can you build your barn far enough back to satisfy his boundary but do your ties to what your boundary is. (show it as 32.5 feet from the boundary if the minimum setback is 30'/)
Or,
Could you be a good neighbor and write up a boundary line agreement showing the driveway line as the boundary? It is obviously indeterminate enough that two different surveyors disagree. it should meet the requirements for a boundary line agreement to fix the problem (I would guess). The neighbor will obviously stand firm if it means fixing an encroached driveway.
(as to your initial question about price) While Dave pointing out that the fee could be that much, I have trouble with the leap of properly determining a difficult boundary and charging an additional $4000 to locate stakes and drawing a plat (and paying county fees for recording)
@ Dave Karoly
If they have recording laws there, then there might be a county surveyor review fee, but the initial survey would have had to be drawn up (?). If there are no recording laws, I would think the only fee would be to record the drawing in the public records without a county surveyor's review)
The initial survey should have included the locations of all and any monuments and boundaries of adjacent owners that would prove and defend their decisions against all other claims.
Their coming back out should have only been to check and verify where the other surveyor set new monuments.
I find it hard to accept for any surveyor to charge for all that additional locations, it is like they are now trying to protect themselves after the fact.
Bow Tie Surveyor, post: 395938, member: 6939 wrote: Did you have a contract with the surveyor describing what the payment terms were?
Hiring a surveyor that specializes in commercial construction to do boundary survey may not have been a good choice. Firstly, while they are both types of surveying, they use different skill sets, It is possible for a surveyor could be a great at construction layout, but poor at boundary location and vice-versa. Secondly, they way the two kinds of projects get billed is typically different. Typically, in construction layout you bid the job assuming that that there will be no issues (knowing that every project will have issues) and then you bill (often at an hourly rate) for the change orders. On the other hand, boundary survey fees are usually lump sum contracts.
There was no contract and he never mentioned any additional fees when he said he was coming back out a year later. I never expected any additional fees as I just wanted my survey documentation from the year before that had already been paid for.
sjc1989, post: 395953, member: 6718 wrote: The description of "few houses each direction from my intersection" makes me think there's a lot more to check and mesh than my average farm acreage survey price. Probably increasing it by a factor of two or three.
If your property is assessed at $800k vs. $200k the cost will go up by an appropriate multiplier. Not because I hate rich people, but because if I make a blunder it will potentially cost me that much more $$$.
Steve
My house is worth around $115k. My neighbors is worth around $60k per the auditor. Neither of us are wealthy.
Holy Cow, post: 395956, member: 50 wrote: Those of us who have spent time in court understand why it is essential to determine if there was information overlooked the first time out or if this new survey is slanted intentionally (unethical, but it happens) to the neighbor's advantage. I know of a case where a freshly set bar was "found" by the adjoiner's surveyor in a key location. I wish we didn't need to worry about bad apples in our profession, but the reality is that they exist.
And that is very likely. To add more to the story my neighbors property had never been surveyed. It is a 0.5 acre lot that was cut out of his neighbors 10 acre lot. Prior to this recent survey the last survey on my lot was 1991. Prior to having my stepfather recommend a surveyor I tried to hire the same surveyor from the 1991 survey on my property to replace the pin the neighbor pulled. He stated on the phone, "Sorry I don't do surveys anymore. I'm too old and don't get around very well." Guess who ended up doing my neighbors survey? You got it. My neighbor is a preacher. Guess who lives a block away from my neighbors church? You got it.
When my surveyor came back out they said that the stake the neighbors surveyor placed lies 2 ft off the coordinate he put on the drawing that was submitted to the county...
When I initially tried to locate the stakes and asked my neighbor to help he acted very nervous. Over the next few days he kept hammering a piece of pipe into the yard. I asked what he was doing and he said he was replacing the marker. I advised him that there is no way he can remember exactly where it went at this point and I had a professional coming out in the next few days. In the meantime I noticed him in the yard over the next few days acting erratic and adjusting its location on multiple occasions. The day before my surveyors arrived my father in law came to visit and got here before I did. I dont believe my neighbor had ever seen my father in law so confused him for a surveyor. My father in law told me that evening that when he was walking around the property waiting on me the neighbor came out acting erratic with a tape measure and measured the width of his driveway.
I believe my neighbor knew there was an encroachment and thats why the stake/pin was missing. When my surveyors came back the second time to place their stakes the neighbor called the sheriff and tried to get the sheriff to stop them from proceeding. My neighbor said right in front of my surveyor, my stepfather, the Sheriffs Deputy, and myself "My wife backed over it a few years before, it tore our car up pretty bad and bent the stake so I pulled it. The stake is in the garage and I never got around to straightening it and replacing it." Due to his erratic behavior I think there is more to the story and he pulled it when he poured his driveway to get a few extra feet as it would have been a very tight fit for his RV. That is of course hard to prove. I can of course prove he admits to pulling it. I don't see why he needed to pull it if its bent above the ground as its still in the ground at the correct location. Have any of you had clients that successfully won their survey and legal fees from their neighbor due to that neighbor pulling a marker?
LostInOhio, post: 395996, member: 12205 wrote: When I initially tried to locate the stakes and asked my neighbor to help he acted very nervous. Over the next few days he kept hammering a piece of pipe into the yard. I asked what he was doing and he said he was replacing the marker. I advised him that there is no way he can remember exactly where it went at this point and I had a professional coming out in the next few days. In the meantime I noticed him in the yard over the next few days acting erratic and adjusting its location on multiple occasions. The day before my surveyors arrived my father in law came to visit and got here before I did. I dont believe my neighbor had ever seen my father in law so confused him for a surveyor. My father in law told me that evening that when he was walking around the property waiting on me the neighbor came out acting erratic with a tape measure and measured the width of his driveway.
I believe my neighbor knew there was an encroachment and thats why the stake/pin was missing. When my surveyors came back the second time to place their stakes the neighbor called the sheriff and tried to get the sheriff to stop them from proceeding. My neighbor said right in front of my surveyor, my stepfather, the Sheriffs Deputy, and myself "My wife backed over it a few years before, it tore our car up pretty bad and bent the stake so I pulled it. The stake is in the garage and I never got around to straightening it and replacing it." Due to his erratic behavior I think there is more to the story and he pulled it when he poured his driveway to get a few extra feet as it would have been a very tight fit for his RV. That is of course hard to prove. I can of course prove he admits to pulling it. I don't see why he needed to pull it if its bent above the ground as its still in the ground at the correct location. Have any of you had clients that successfully won their survey and legal fees from their neighbor due to that neighbor pulling a marker?
I don't know about Ohio Law but it is typical in the U.S. that each party bears their own Attorney fees in a Civil Dispute except in very limited circumstances usually laid out in Statute. I think you may be able to recover costs (Surveyor fees) but the Attorney fees are usually huge compared to other costs. Only an Ohio Litigator can advise you accurately on that, however. You need an Attorney who is a Real Property specialist and they are expensive; don't waste your money on a General Practice Attorney because in my experience they usually flub the case, badly, because Real Property, and even more so Boundaries, is a very specialized and strange part of the law. Boundaries, in particular, depend upon ancient Common Law and is not black and white; it takes a Litigator who really understands boundary law to get a good result. In addition to that, you need a Surveyor who is a Boundary Expert with experience in boundary litigation to testify on your behalf and those don't come cheap either. Avoid litigation if at all possible. Mediating a solution with the neighbor is much better, maybe he agrees to recognize the correct boundary and you in exchange for that give him an easement for his driveway. This is just a suggestion. Maybe Ohio is a lot cheaper than the rest of the country but I wouldn't count on it. I could go broke winning lawsuits.
[USER=12205]@LostInOhio[/USER]
Not many suits against neighbors pulling pins make it to any charges filed or get far into court because without witness it is your word against theirs.
Now that your neighbor has confessed to others, hopefully the Deputy will have included the statement in his report.
An attorney can tell you more about your chances and some states allow recovery charges and other do not.
I don't have a lot to add that hasn't already been said except one thing. Sometimes size matters, other times it doesn't. If you are surveying a property your size, it doesn't really matter if its 3/4 of an acre, a 1/2 acre, or 3 acres. Some people get hung up on the size thinking it should cost less if its smaller. Its the amount of work it takes doing the research, finding other nearby property corners, computing the boundary and drawing up the plat that adds to the cost.
There are flat open areas nearby the city I work in that I could go out with GPS, survey the property, draw a plat up for 640 acres and do it for less than $2000. There are some other nearby smaller towns that have so few property corners that I can't do a lot survey in town for $2000.
So, if you are looking for another surveyor, and you are used to paying these kind of prices, um my number is 870 356 3797!
So long as you don't mind using an ARKANSAS surveyor!
🙂
$6,700 for a property survey isn't unreasonable. It's more than my average survey of that size typically costs but, it wouldn't take many issues uncovered in the field or in the title for a survey to escalate to that price. What I wouldn't do is #1. work without a contract and #2. give an estimate of $1,000 and then bill $6,700 without first meeting with the client to explain what issues I had uncovered and what steps I had to take to resolve them.
If you think that you surveyor's location of the property line is correct and that your neighbor is only worried about his driveway. I would consider offering to convey him an easement over the portion of the driveway that is on your property. I would explain to him that it is an option that will keep you out of court and save both of you thousands of dollars.
This story reminds me of a friend who contacted me about a 3 acre survey. I looked into his property and then gave him an estimate of $2,500. He told me that one of his co-workers knew a surveyor that said they could do it for $600. I explained why my estimate was $2,500 and told him to be careful if he went with the other guy. Three weeks later my friend got a call from the other survey saying he was done with the survey and that he owed the surveyor $2,600 before the surveyor would turn over a copy of his plat. The other surveyor said that he encountered several 'unforeseen' issues.
LostInOhio, post: 395933, member: 12205 wrote: Hello,
I have a question regarding a fair price for a survey I was hoping some of you could answer for me. To make a long story short I went to build a barn/workshop last year and my neighbor tried everything in his power to stop me. The township gave me the go ahead, but said to make sure I was 10 ft from the property line. When I went to look for the survey markers one was missing and the neighbor said his wife ran over it with the car years before and bent it so he removed it. I had no choice but to hire a surveyor. Every surveyor I called was backed up for months. My stepfather is in commercial construction so recommended one for me. He said they estimated it would be $500-$1000. The first day they came out I came home from work and the surveyors were at the property line talking to the neighbor. They said there was a potential encroachment and needed to do more research. I contacted my stepfather who stated he talked to them and now I was looking at the top end so around $1000. They came back a few weeks later and placed the stakes which showed the entire length of my neighbors driveway was approximately 2.5ft on my property. My stepfather received a bill with his companies name on it from the survey company for $2980 for placing the stakes. I'm not sure why they billed him, but he paid it so now I owe him for it. $2980 seemed very excessive for a survey on a 0.66 acre lot.This year I received a letter from my neighbor's attorney threatening to sue if I do not remove the stakes as he claimed I was clouding the title. The neighbor also hired a surveyor who claimed the edge of his driveway lies exactly on the property line. I hired an attorney and he said we needed to record the survey and then have a mediation with the neighbor and his attorney. I contacted the surveyor for the documentation and he had his guys come back out to locate the stakes the neighbors surveyor placed. I finally get the survey and forward it to my attorney to file it.
Today I receive a bill for $3700 which throws me for a loop. I call the surveyor and ask him why the additional $720 in charges. He says no it was $3700 more to draw up the survey and locate the neighbors new stakes and the initial $2980 just was to place the stakes. So he charged me $6680 to do a survey on a 0.66 acre lot. They did have to do research on my and my neighbor's deeds and went down a few houses each direction from my intersection to verify points, but the price seems extremely excessive. Can I get your opinions on this?
Sounds excessive..but as stated earlier..we dont know enough about the circumstances.However..The problem that really sticks out to me is this.......
If a price range was quoted and the surveyor eventually realized that the cost would be far exceeded...the client should have been notified of this before any services were performed that were not part of the original scope. Sometimes its impossible to know what unforeseen circumstances may come up...but surely...the client should be informed prior to avoid sticker shock. I used to handle these situations with an additional services form with an estimate of the costs of the additional services.The client would sign off before the additional work was performed. If they didnt agree..they would be invoiced for the hours spent to date. Just my opinion
Where is the Surveyor having to come from to do your survey? Maybe Hawaii.
LostInOhio, post: 395989, member: 12205 wrote: My house is worth around $115k. My neighbors is worth around $60k per the auditor. Neither of us are wealthy.
It appears that this boundary dispute has already cost way too much. $115 home. What is the land worth? Is the dirt that the house is on worth the $6,000 already spent? I suggest trying to talk openly and sensibly with your neighbor if you possibly can. If he finds you to be generous in your compromise, you might end up with a good neighbor that you aren't always bickering with.
I have a $200K home on a å?-acre with a land value of $20,000. My fence is onto my neighbor's property about 10'. I, personally, wouldn't care if it was on my property. I would never argue over that 10' unless it meant some improvement was encroaching and it might cost me money from that side. (sorry to any of my surveyor friends for advocating not spending any more money on a survey, but geez it just doesn't seem worth it to me.)
Anyway, food for thought.
Now we have some really interesting trivia to consider. The surveyor from 1991 who set something for stakes then refused to work for our new poster, then went over to the "dark side" to do a survey for the neighbor after our new poster had someone else do a survey is a key figure in this mess.
All sorts of scenarios come to mind and most of them are not good for the surveying profession. Among fifty other questions is whether or not the object allegedly bent by the neighbor's wife at some time in the past was the actual monument set in 1991 or simply a guard post of some variety to ease locating the true monument set below ground level. Another question is who did the actual survey work for the new poster......the signing surveyor or an underling mainly experienced with construction staking. Wonder who has to sign off on these at the County.
LostInOhio, post: 395933, member: 12205 wrote: Hello,
I have a question regarding a fair price for a survey I was hoping some of you could answer for me. To make a long story short I went to build a barn/workshop last year and my neighbor tried everything in his power to stop me. The township gave me the go ahead, but said to make sure I was 10 ft from the property line. When I went to look for the survey markers one was missing and the neighbor said his wife ran over it with the car years before and bent it so he removed it. I had no choice but to hire a surveyor. Every surveyor I called was backed up for months. My stepfather is in commercial construction so recommended one for me. He said they estimated it would be $500-$1000. The first day they came out I came home from work and the surveyors were at the property line talking to the neighbor. They said there was a potential encroachment and needed to do more research. I contacted my stepfather who stated he talked to them and now I was looking at the top end so around $1000. They came back a few weeks later and placed the stakes which showed the entire length of my neighbors driveway was approximately 2.5ft on my property. My stepfather received a bill with his companies name on it from the survey company for $2980 for placing the stakes. I'm not sure why they billed him, but he paid it so now I owe him for it. $2980 seemed very excessive for a survey on a 0.66 acre lot.This year I received a letter from my neighbor's attorney threatening to sue if I do not remove the stakes as he claimed I was clouding the title. The neighbor also hired a surveyor who claimed the edge of his driveway lies exactly on the property line. I hired an attorney and he said we needed to record the survey and then have a mediation with the neighbor and his attorney. I contacted the surveyor for the documentation and he had his guys come back out to locate the stakes the neighbors surveyor placed. I finally get the survey and forward it to my attorney to file it.
Today I receive a bill for $3700 which throws me for a loop. I call the surveyor and ask him why the additional $720 in charges. He says no it was $3700 more to draw up the survey and locate the neighbors new stakes and the initial $2980 just was to place the stakes. So he charged me $6680 to do a survey on a 0.66 acre lot. They did have to do research on my and my neighbor's deeds and went down a few houses each direction from my intersection to verify points, but the price seems extremely excessive. Can I get your opinions on this?
What does your contract say about the fee?
