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Virtual Pincushions

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MightyMoe
(@mightymoe)
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Heck, even the BLM has placed more emphasis on the idea of senior lines deferring to junior monuments.

 
Posted : July 11, 2024 11:58 pm
(@dmyhill)
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I am running a line. I find a series of line stakes shown on the plat. Each of the stakes is 0.1' to 0.2' feet within being on my calculated line.

1. Do I simply show the line stakes with no calls for distance off line and show the line as straight between corners (the "close enough" theory)?

2. Do I create a series of angle points in my surveyed line?

3. Do I show the line as straight and then call out the "misses"?

I have seen respected and good surveyors do all three. I have seen the same one do all three on different surveys. I have seen variations on the same survey (original vs marks with no provenance).

Regarding 1, this probably represents the intention and will work out in practice to be like all the rest, on the ground. It may confuse surveyors that follow, and they may think that the points were disturbed between their work and yours.

Regarding 2, IF all the marks have the preponderance of evidence that they are original and undisturbed monuments from the division of land, then this is probably "correct". Chances are you will need local knowledge and experience with the original surveyor to make the call.

Regarding 3, surveyors following will be able to determine if they have the same measurements, the line will be straight, but will confuse anyone that looks closely..."so where are you saying the line is?"

What I care about the MOST is that no matter what decisions the surveyor makes that they include a NARRATIVE that describes what and why and how they did what they did and the conclusions they came to. I can follow any of those methods, as long as they make it clear what they are doing and what they meant.

1. "The line goes through the monument, as shown graphically. Misses are from calculated positions, but the monuments hold. The differences are show to assist following surveyors to retrace my work."

2. "I found all the original corners and they are consistent in type and accuracy with the 1000 other corners I have found from that surveyor, and I held them. This creates angle points."

3. "I ran the line, and found line stakes that appear to be original. As they meandered 0.1' to 0.2' from the true line between the found corners, I held the line between corners. The line stakes are consistent in nature and accuracy expected at the time, there is no evidence that the surveyor or the grantor intended to create angle points in the sideline of this property, in addition improvements along the line may have disturbed the line stakes."

Alternative: "Did not hold line stakes. The original surveyor holds a reputation for setting marks with extreme accuracy and care. Rather than the surveyor setting line stakes up to 0.2' from the true line, it is likely that the line stakes were disturbed by observed improvements along the line."

You can disagree with any of these, but at least you know what they did.

 
Posted : July 12, 2024 1:10 am
holy-cow
(@holy-cow)
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One thing is to keep in mind is that the entire monument is the corner. The corner is not some infinitesimal fly speck on the apparent center of the top of the monument. Bearings and distances get you to the MONUMENT. If they, get you there, great. If they, don't something is very, very wrong.

 
Posted : July 12, 2024 1:38 am
(@dmyhill)
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One thing is to keep in mind is that the entire monument is the corner.

Times like this I miss McMillimeter and his punch marks.

😉

 
Posted : July 12, 2024 3:36 am
(@bstrand)
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One thing is to keep in mind is that the entire monument is the corner.

I don't think I agree with that. While I wouldn't say it's some infinitely small speck, it's certainly less than a 6x6" post. Maybe landowners in your area aren't so picky about their boundaries, but around here if I tried rolling in and saying yeah you're boundary is +-6 inches from my pin I can almost guarantee I'd be catching hell for that.

 
Posted : July 12, 2024 3:44 am

holy-cow
(@holy-cow)
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This is the mindset that has ruined the surveying profession. Monuments are the true corners. The only need for bearings and distances is to get you to the monument. We have lost alot of our Texas cohorts who know the monument is the corner and they so state in their field notes which are really an entirely new description of the boundary based on what was observed in the field.

Monuments are placed for one reason. To provide VISIBLE proof of property corners to all comers for as long as the monument is not destroyed.

This fixation on flyspecks must go away.

 
Posted : July 12, 2024 4:27 am
(@bstrand)
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This is the mindset that has ruined the surveying profession. Monuments are the true corners.

No, what ruins the profession is the ridiculous idea that that scope is not even a thing that would or should be considered. Maybe I should move down to Arizona and call the Grand Canyon my property corner. What could go wrong?

 
Posted : July 12, 2024 4:38 am
OleManRiver
(@olemanriver)
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This unfortunately is becoming the norm. I went out and flagged and found a bunch of corners monuments. Pipes rebar stones even a tree. Chopped called for and everything. Well I was not the one measuring them. But the person in charge as I was looking computed points to be set at the tree aka natural monument. A nice rebar set which took a crew a bit as it was landing in a spot that was difficult to drive in. A 36” oak located by offset method to center did not match a stone that was odd shaped but about 8” x 8” in the big scheme of things located obviously by a crew chief to his best ability to depict the center of that stone undisturbed. And that stone did not match a 1 1/2” pinched top pipe by whatever. When it was all said and done the deed plat was placed on the ground so all new distance and bearings matched the deed.

I do not understand this train of thought whatsoever and I am not licensed but these very things have made me pause to get licensed or take the last exam because I figured I must have been taught wrong in the 90’s when I was surveying before. I believe we have become so good at measuring or some believe they have that the guy who was yanking a chain and using a transit just was not good enough.

When original corners are found undisturbed I was always taught that was without error. Hold them hang your hat on them. They are what they are. I was taught that the math to set a missing corner should be the last resort period what other evidence is already agreed upon. Maybe an old fence a hedge row. The plowed or agricultural land vs the neighbor who just mowed his grass They both have accepted that for many years if they are happy why change that to some math magical position.

 
Posted : July 12, 2024 5:07 am
fairbanksls
(@fairbanksls)
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Have you ever set a lot corner in a subdivision and when you drove by the next day observe that it was in a different location? It had been moved approximately 5 feet and it wasn’t nature that moved it. Not all property owners are honest and I would have never known if I hadn’t set it myself. I learned a long time ago that it’s important to be able to read the person you’re talking with.

 
Posted : July 12, 2024 5:17 am
fairbanksls
(@fairbanksls)
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The days of property owners knowing their bounds are rapidly fading into the past. Without reliance has the corner set been accepted? I try to avoid showing angle points in the parent tract line. The legal principles may not have changed but the actions of the owners certainly have.

 
Posted : July 12, 2024 5:35 am

MightyMoe
(@mightymoe)
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I had one guy move a corner, he beat the cap back into the ground with a hatchet,,,,,,,,the sharp side.

That one was easy the old hole was still there with flagging peaking out of it.

For the last twenty years we've labeled the lines and lot #'s on the cap.

Saved us many times.

A disturbed monument does not mark the corner position, but it does throw doubt in the location.

 
Posted : July 12, 2024 5:51 am
fairbanksls
(@fairbanksls)
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Based on your posts I believe the profession needs more surveyors like you. I urge you to apply as soon as you consider yourself ready.

 
Posted : July 12, 2024 6:01 am
holy-cow
(@holy-cow)
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Read an obituary last week for a fellow who was guilty of pin moving after the fact. He was present during our survey and told us precisely where each corner should go. it was plus or minus 10 acres so area was not critical as he owned all the ground surrounding the new tract except along the county road. A few weeks later we get a call from the buyer's lender for a mortgagee title inspection to verify improvements. Go to the northwest corner, no bar, but a hole. Precisely 20 feet to the south we find our bar, cap and flag all mushed around but present. We pulled our bar and slid it right back down into the original hole. We said nothing but showed the northwest corner to be in a fence line XXX,XX feet from a corner post. We also set a t-post we happened to have along very deep as a guard stake.

The original client carried a real estate salesman license for several decades.

 
Posted : July 12, 2024 6:02 am
(@bstrand)
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@OleManRiver

When original corners are found undisturbed I was always taught that was without error.

That's right. I don't think anyone here is disputing that.

My point is suppose the monument is the 36" wide tree you mentioned. Am I supposed to mark a 36" wide tube (the width of the tree) from that monument to the next closest monuments and expect the landowner or his adjoiners to be satisfied with that?

 
Posted : July 12, 2024 6:06 am
fairbanksls
(@fairbanksls)
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Would it be a cone instead of a tube? Lol.

I’d suggest they contact Ole Man River or use the center of the tree.

 
Posted : July 12, 2024 6:36 am

OleManRiver
(@olemanriver)
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Well it depends. I have on one of my properties where a common line between me and 2 neighbors is a 54” white oak. 3 chops on all 3 sides. We all call the center of it the corner. Now how well can we all measure that center it’s not a perfect circle at any height. I strung string line around it so string was on both sides and pulled it to the front pin. As I built my fence I split the two strings all the way back to set post. I had a surveyor come out before setting all post to check. I get along great with my neighbors I don’t want to cheat them or whoever comes here after me. He located most all other corners and the tree and said look I can’t see you encroaching anywhere nor are you off the line. He said I could comp this all sort’s different ways but you are all over the center of your tree along that line. I think you are good. He had no idea I had any survey background until he saw my steel tape and chaining pins under the shade tree. He said where did you get those. I said I use to survey and have some sets of my own. Now let’s say this was not rural America and a zero lot like subdivision. I still am not setting another pin I am holding that tree to the best of my ability. Now of course I will look at the bearings off other corners so what I measure as center might float a bit inside that tree it’s common sense in my opinion. That tree is the corner has been almost literally since Lewis and Clark father settled here. They lived right here Clark family farm or was born not a quarter of a mile along a road here. Now exactly no one knows the exact location but the markers are here.use to be a old stone fireplace that had tree growing up around it that all old timers all said had been Clark’s birthplace home it was finally destroyed when the land was cleared 10 years ago

A line has no defined width. So a fence that follows a line is it on or off as different size post diameter or do you call it on line. If it meanders yeah but if in all practical sense those post are on the line the fence is online.

When you use google maps or whatever do you follow it’s exactly or its intent? If I followed it exactly everywhere I could be in the wrong lane or dive off into a no road exist for another 100’.

 
Posted : July 12, 2024 6:44 am
(@bstrand)
Posts: 2359
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Would it be a cone instead of a tube?

Maaaaybe.

...or use the center of the tree.

How dare you! You flyspeck fixator ruining the profession! 🙄🙄🙄

 
Posted : July 12, 2024 6:48 am
OleManRiver
(@olemanriver)
Posts: 2538
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When we bought this place we had the previous owner who is our neighbor do a boundary line adjustment so we gained a bit more space and acres. We all literally walked out his wife him me and realtors on both sides. I had a 3’ stake and hammer and some old flagging. We all got to about where we thought the line should go. I paced off the cl road that is in a curve and drove the stake. The surveyor arrived and I said shoot for this line roughly and whatever you need to do for ROW. He called me 5 or so days later I was back in STL working and said how close do you think you were I said a foot he said well you got lucky then we had to move the stake a bit to set your new pin. He is now about 85 years old and still is surveying. Well has a couple crews. Lives not far from me. We chat sometimes when I am driving tractor by his house when he is checking the mail. He always asks when I am going to buy him out so I can take over his business. I still have a lot to learn for sure. Hopefully before I am forced to retire I can get licensed. I do miss the searching for stones and reference marks. In the PLSS .

 
Posted : July 12, 2024 6:55 am
(@dmyhill)
Posts: 3082
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Have you ever set a lot corner in a subdivision and when you drove by the next day observe that it was in a different location? It had been moved approximately 5 feet and it wasn’t nature that moved it. Not all property owners are honest and I would have never known if I hadn’t set it myself. I learned a long time ago that it’s important to be able to read the person you’re talking with.

I had a guy that kept moving the rebar. I even contacted the city attorney. They had never heard of the law that makes it a crime to move a corner monument, and they had no stomach for attempting to prove someone had done so. Wouldn't even send out a cop to see if the guy admitted it. So we let it drop.

On a kind of other note, I read one case where the guy's persistence in moving the corner marker contributed to his winning his adverse possession claim.

 
Posted : July 12, 2024 11:05 am
(@dmyhill)
Posts: 3082
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The days of property owners knowing their bounds are rapidly fading into the past. Without reliance has the corner set been accepted? I try to avoid showing angle points in the parent tract line. The legal principles may not have changed but the actions of the owners certainly have.

Walking or Beating or Perambulating the Bounds is a tradition that anyone without longstanding fences should follow with their neighbors, especially before purchasing the property. First of all, being in good graces with the neighbors is very helpful in having a happy life. Second, affirming and reaffirming the bounds is good practice.

 
Posted : July 12, 2024 11:08 am

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