mvanhank222, post: 412985, member: 8673 wrote: If you have time try poking around on Leicas website if I remember there were some articles about alternative methods for vertical construction.
I will take a look. Thank you.
I would take a look at the standpipe, perhaps there is a plumb line of site there, maybe a mail shoot. Still it seems if they are removing elevators and doing heavy work on others that someone has access and control which makes one element of potential solutions political rather than technical or fiscal.
party chef, post: 413010, member: 98 wrote: I would take a look at the standpipe, perhaps there is a plumb line of site there, maybe a mail shoot. Still it seems if they are removing elevators and doing heavy work on others that someone has access and control which makes one element of potential solutions political rather than technical or fiscal.
Cores were fiscal which will work against them I believe. I think you may be right with the political part but that's a barrier we wont be able to break.
Please educate me. If the structure is complete and this is an interior renovation, what is it that needs careful surveying inside?
Bill93, post: 413058, member: 87 wrote: Please educate me. If the structure is complete and this is an interior renovation, what is it that needs careful surveying inside?
Your correct.
The need is 2 fold.
1. We are to be laying out new window locations which will be marked in the interior to be cut through the face. There are also stairs, new structural members ect... These are to be given to us in coordinate form, nothing to be laid out off of existing columns.
2. The whole design is based of a scanning done throughout the whole building. These scans, wile accurate within themselves weren't constrained together level to level. They were seamed together using a "best fit" line post scan. They now have discovered discrepancies from floor to floor so we are to locate specific items during our work to get the scans and hence the designs in order.
Luke J. Crawford, post: 413101, member: 11382 wrote: Your correct.
The need is 2 fold.
1. We are to be laying out new window locations which will be marked in the interior to be cut through the face. There are also stairs, new structural members ect... These are to be given to us in coordinate form, nothing to be laid out off of existing columns.2. The whole design is based of a scanning done throughout the whole building. These scans, wile accurate within themselves weren't constrained together level to level. They were seamed together using a "best fit" line post scan. They now have discovered discrepancies from floor to floor so we are to locate specific items during our work to get the scans and hence the designs in order.
Yikes!
T&M?
Brad Ott, post: 413113, member: 197 wrote: Yikes!
T&M?
It is a "do not exceed" budget. Think they'll only have enough to do 1/4 of the job.
Rather be reading than writing this thread @ this point!
Luke J. Crawford, post: 413151, member: 11382 wrote: Rather be reading than writing this thread @ this point!
Are any of the stairs wells open rails? Is there a center open area that is visible down to bottom floor?
leegreen, post: 413157, member: 2332 wrote: Are any of the stairs wells open rails? Is there a center open area that is visible down to bottom floor?
All stairs have multiple landings with uneven runs. Most also have a Hall to access the floor from the stairs, stair runs are set tight, no room between stringers to drop a line.
Put sticky targets on the outside of the windows, put another facing inside at the same location, use a prism constant that takes into account the thickness of the glass. Run a random traverse side to side through the building to another window, trying to tie somewhere to something inside, use reasonable confidences and focus on wrapping up to match and rectify the scanned data.
Paint the window around the targets or the glass will mess with the edm, also do not use ATR or tracking inside with glass in the background as it can mess things up. Maybe the Holiday snow decorative window spray paint is a good choice.
Just throwing this out there based on the constraints as put forward, I still think demanding off shift control of a couple elevator shafts is a better bet.
party chef, post: 413159, member: 98 wrote: Put sticky targets on the outside of the windows, put another facing inside at the same location, use a prism constant that takes into account the thickness of the glass. Run a random traverse side to side through the building to another window, trying to tie somewhere to something inside, use reasonable confidences and focus on wrapping up to match and rectify the scanned data.
Paint the window around the targets or the glass will mess with the edm, also do not use ATR or tracking inside with glass in the background as it can mess things up. Maybe the Holiday snow decorative window spray paint is a good choice.
Just throwing this out there based on the constraints as put forward, I still think demanding off shift control of a couple elevator shafts is a better bet.
I was also thinking about running control through the window sills. Even it you can't get back, can you go vertical with right angle adapter up the face of of exterior wall? Just a thought.
party chef, post: 413159, member: 98 wrote: Put sticky targets on the outside of the windows, put another facing inside at the same location, use a prism constant that takes into account the thickness of the glass. Run a random traverse side to side through the building to another window, trying to tie somewhere to something inside, use reasonable confidences and focus on wrapping up to match and rectify the scanned data.
Paint the window around the targets or the glass will mess with the edm, also do not use ATR or tracking inside with glass in the background as it can mess things up. Maybe the Holiday snow decorative window spray paint is a good choice.
Just throwing this out there based on the constraints as put forward, I still think demanding off shift control of a couple elevator shafts is a better bet.
Windows won't work, in 1/2 the building as they're "landmark" and being restored. In the other 1/2 they're being replaced. We also have no line of sight from outside more than 50' except along 1 column of windows thanks to a small side street.
Random is out of the question as they need everything tied into the site system to match the architects design and constrain the scans.
Per elevators, even the ones we could access have I-Beams through the shafts with work platforms on the on most floors.
leegreen, post: 413160, member: 2332 wrote: I was also thinking about running control through the window sills. Even it you can't get back, can you go vertical with right angle adapter up the face of of exterior wall? Just a thought.
This building doesn't have curtain walls, the are double hung, steel framed windows set into a stone face. This is a great idea though!
Make a jig to set in the window sill to transfer control.
I may be your area next week. Maybe I could stop in, and help you brain storm.
leegreen, post: 413167, member: 2332 wrote: Make a jig to set in the window sill to transfer control.
I may be your area next week. Maybe I could stop in, and help you brain storm.
I may have quit by then! Haha
Any help is welcome.
Luke J. Crawford, post: 413162, member: 11382 wrote: Random is out of the question as they need everything tied into the site system to match the architects design and constrain the scans.
I only meant random as in not trying to stay on grid for the mark to mark traverse, not that it would be its own little world.
Sounds like things were completed out of order leaving you with quite the pickle.
Luke J. Crawford, post: 413168, member: 11382 wrote: I may have quit by then! Haha
Any help is welcome.
Sorry can't do much from here, I'm in Orlando, FL until Friday.
I've done a few of these and it takes some creative thinking. We do everything we can to get the core holes. I know it's expensive, but if you're providing control for the elevator retrofit, there isn't any other way.
Generally we recreate a grid on the first floor based off the existing columns. We go up from there at an offset that has no obstructions above. But another way is to push the column offsets out a door or a window into the street. On all sides. So now your 2' offset is say 52'.
You can then double center a target to the windows or even a red pencil line to the sill above on all the box corners. Two marks on each side of the building, on each floor. You then go up to each floor and buck in on the lines, and recreate the intersections on the floor. Set up on the intersections, check the 90s and adjust to make it square. This control will stack, and you can layout from there. While it sounds that you don't have to be on grid, it will keep you honest as you move floor to floor. you can always measure over to a column and check and the offset compared to the floor below.
Is there space between the facade and the pour stop? You can hang a plumb bob down and make your marks on the floor above. Repeat the bucking in process and go.
Existing core holes from the removed utilities?
some pictures would help. There's always a way.
party chef, post: 413170, member: 98 wrote: I only meant random as in not trying to stay on grid for the mark to mark traverse, not that it would be its own little world.
Sounds like things were completed out of order leaving you with quite the pickle.
That is the truth, barrel of pickles! The scan guy was in the job for over a year before we came onsite. The constraint issue came up as he scanned some floors pre-gut, ran up to top & when he came back down post-gut floors started to not align, upwards of a foot from what I understand.
The sites 0,0 (@ NW corner) also became disconnected during this process, meaning that design starts @ a -N, -E somewhere while scans are @ O,O (Osnap!). That's an answer we've also been waiting on for 2 months now. Design based @ NW means we will be -N,E for all our layout. When asked why it was setup with negative X (N) they said that there were no negatives, X is always +. I'm now thinking they've rotated design -90 so E is now X (N) & N is Y (E) Lucky PENZD is Lieca Captivates native order. Time wil tell.
