Vertical ALTA

I've done several condominium projects and ALTA surveys on a few. If they are separating the units by condo plat and declaration I would point out that the unit number is the description. The ALTA standards dont allow changing that to 'metes and bounds.'. If they are selling the portion by any other means i would urge you to resesrch it as its probably not kosher. Not certain in Tennessee. Its been a very long time since i did anything there...

I did a legal description for a power company transformer room on the third floor of a hotel in Atlanta one time. I had to trace a line horizontally from a property corner to the corner of the building, "thence vertically 40 feet to a point at the lower southwest corner of said area; thence blah blah blah". What I essentially did was describe a rectangular "cube" by describing the lower footprint, and saying that the area extended upwards from elevation 40 to elevation 50 or whatever it was. It apparently worked, because I never heard back from the attorney. Never done one since. I'm sure that there is an easier way to do it.

Dale Yawn
Savannah, Ga.

Dale Yawn, post: 424584, member: 492 wrote: I did a legal description for a power company transformer room on the third floor of a hotel in Atlanta one time. I had to trace a line horizontally from a property corner to the corner of the building, "thence vertically 40 feet to a point at the lower southwest corner of said area; thence blah blah blah". What I essentially did was describe a rectangular "cube" by describing the lower footprint, and saying that the area extended upwards from elevation 40 to elevation 50 or whatever it was. It apparently worked, because I never heard back from the attorney. Never done one since. I'm sure that there is an easier way to do it.

Dale Yawn
Savannah, Ga.

I also have done numerous descriptions for easements, leases and sales of described areas on top of multi-story buildings. Some were cell antenna locations, some were xformer locations and some were telecommunication equipment. Like you said, they were all described as x and y, then qualified with a "z". I don't think I have ever used any vertical datum other than reference to the structures on which the equipment was located.

A vertical ALTA does not exist in the standards I have read, I have been involved in a few ALTA Surveys on condo projects similar to what you describe, the only way to comply with the standards is to perform an ALTA on the parent parcel, watch the Table A items you negotiate, 10 for one could make your life real hard.

Seems you would need to locate the floor and ceiling of the floor where the split will occur and possibly account for any utilities running between them as well. Would you need to determine whether the fire sprinkler pipe for the top floor of the hotel is encroaching into the vertical space of the sewer pipe for the bottom floor of the split off area? Lots of items to consider with this.

Ryan Versteeg, post: 424723, member: 41 wrote: Seems you would need to locate the floor and ceiling of the floor where the split will occur and possibly account for any utilities running between them as well. Would you need to determine whether the fire sprinkler pipe for the top floor of the hotel is encroaching into the vertical space of the sewer pipe for the bottom floor of the split off area? Lots of items to consider with this.

This

I've been working on L'enfant Plaza of years. Three buildings (two more under construction), five underground levels, a subway station, one building built partially over a highway on an air rights lot and that building is split halfway up with office below and a hotel above. Probably close to 50 total air right lots on the site now.

To prepare just the easement portion of the master covenant agreement ran six figures and took eighteen months (survey only, I'll bet the lawyers fees were over seven figures). I sat through a four hour meeting, twice monthly, for over year with the site facilities managers, the developer's in house counsel, another high priced D.C. land use attorney, and two architects with Ivy League MBAs. We went over every duct bank, elevator, stairway, access corridor, utility room, etc. in the entire complex to determine which existing or future parcel might need rights to use the facility.

It was an insanely complicated process.

Ryan Versteeg, post: 424723, member: 41 wrote: Seems you would need to locate the floor and ceiling of the floor where the split will occur and possibly account for any utilities running between them as well. Would you need to determine whether the fire sprinkler pipe for the top floor of the hotel is encroaching into the vertical space of the sewer pipe for the bottom floor of the split off area? Lots of items to consider with this.

Good points, I see where you are going with this. Maybe I'm missing something but these encroachments mentioned are typically addressed in the CC&R's, ALTA standards do not address vertical airspace, in California if we prepare a condo map it IS LOT 1 of TRACT XXXXX, the airspace is defined by Instrument No. XXXXXXXX, why is that?

For the sake of argument, I have seen A few, very few, maps showing airspace elements.

One time we had a job to locate what appeared to be a standard two-story building along the front of a courthouse square. What I found interesting was that, for a span of maybe 50 years, that building had been split such that the "second floor" had a separate owner from the "first floor". It was back together by the time we were working on it, fortunately. There was no access easement, for example, to utilize the stairway inside the first floor to get to the second floor. Just a simple case of one entity holding title to the first floor and another holding title to the second floor. Apparently lawyers were rare in the days they created the split ownership.

I had enough fun just trying to imagine where the lowest point of the second floor was considered to be. Was it the lower side of the floor joists or the upper side of the floor joists or the surface of the floor of the second floor. Maybe it was everything above the pressed tin ceiling of the first floor.

G. Gurney, post: 424444, member: 6700 wrote: Does anyone here have experience issuing a "vertical ALTA"? I have a request to provide one, but am uncertain about the particulars of completing this request. I should expand by saying, the "vertical ALTA" the lender is requesting relates to the sale of the top six floors of a hotel, while the hotel retains the remainder of the floors below. They are requiring metes and bounds descriptions to satisfy this request. There are also several lease agreements that will also require metes and bounds descriptions. If anyone on here wouldn't mind reaching out to me and having a discussion regarding this matter I would greatly appreciate it.

Best,

Gregg Gurney TN RLS 2916

My best advice would be to walk away. If you are writing descriptions for each unit it could end up being a nightmare. It certainly could be done, but the logistics could be a nightmare, especially if you come across something that makes you carry the control up several floors incase everything is not the same with the layouts. Bid it high and add another 25% for the uncertainties.
I have been doing quite a few ALTA surveys and am considering not doing them anymore as when I am provided with the schedule A requirements and provide what was requested I get a constant barrage of calls from the lender's reviewers who don't know what they are looking at, want more than what they originally requested and within the last year has resulted in me and a few of my people pulling overnighters on 3 occasions to make closing on their desired date. Even though I put those costs on the client and get paid handsomely for it, it's not really worth the effort.
The project you describe sounds like a nightmare, especially with the lease agreements which are likely blanket and not plottable, probably not even understood by the bank reviewers.

BK9196, post: 424605, member: 12217 wrote: A vertical ALTA does not exist in the standards I have read, I have been involved in a few ALTA Surveys on condo projects similar to what you describe, the only way to comply with the standards is to perform an ALTA on the parent parcel, watch the Table A items you negotiate, 10 for one could make your life real hard.

If the real property description is 'unit x' of so and so condo an ALTA is pretty straight forward. The portions of the parent parcel where the unit has a declared common interest would need to be surveyed. That may or may not be the entire parent parcel. Do the research and it should be a moneymaker.

A frend recently asked me why do I see opportunities as problems? Bid it high then add 25%. I am glad I did so on a project that started a year and a half ago.

Every ALTA I've done required a FF elevation at all entry points, that included all ground level entry, second floor elevations to a balcony, loading bays and outer basement doorways.
Have not had to include complete interior before.
I would believe that it would be similar to a survey of a building containing multiple level condo properties.