Utility Marking

I have been told I need a locate if I will be driving rebar into the ground. Use that to your advantage and call for a locate. Make sure two of your traverse points are rebar. Maybe my conscience doesn't bother me as much as yours does.

James

Not a whole lot you can do. You can't locate it until it is marked. I just did a topo and the local owner of the water system came out and located the lines with divining rods (bent coat hangers) and said their locator was broken. I informed the engineer of this. Can't wait for construction!

Having observed many "one call" utility locators at work over the years, while their work may be of adequate precision to put an excavator on notice to the possibility of adjacent utilities, I'm not sure that their work is sufficient for design. Especially in an urban environment.

If an engineer wants me to show underground utilities marked by others on my plan, the only way I do it is if they are marked by a subsurface engineering company of my choice, subcontracted under my contract, and carrying adequate professional liability insurance.

We place the following note on the drawing:

"Location, size and extent of subsurface utilities shown as per surface observations and record drawings. There is no guarantee as to the accuracy or completeness of such information, nor is there any guarantee that all utilities are shown. Contact relevant utility companies/agencies for a mark-out (as per New York State Code Rule 753) prior to commencing design, demolition or construction."

The designers have to be made to understand that you cannot locate (much less certify the location of) something you can't see. Even if your survey shows the utilities, that does not absolve the contractor from having a mark-out done when construction begins.

Table A, Item 11 of the ALTA/ACSM Standards indicates that using plan data is acceptable, so long as it is understood by all concerned where the data comes from.

The section states:

"With regard to Table A, item 11(b), source information from plans and markings will be combined with observed evidence of utilities to develop a view of those underground utilities. However, lacking excavation, the exact location of underground features cannot be accurately, completely and reliably depicted. Where additional or more detailed information is required, the client is advised that excavation may be necessary."

Around here, writing and requesting utility plans can give results as quickly as a fax or e-mail the next day, or as slowly as a four week process of ordering, filling out forms and paying in advance.

I always ask this question and come to an agreement prior to our proposal going out. Miss Utility of Virginia will mark a design ticket, although it will take them 15 business days to complete.

Most of the time not all of the utilities are marked. In this case we make this clear in our survey notes in our CAD file, as well as follow up with the locator as to why they didn't mark the lines. We also make it clear in our proposal, that if a design ticket is used, we are not responsible for any unmarked utility lines. We also do the research to show as best as possible quality level D efforts. (plan locations)

We offer in house utility designating and mapping as part of our services, if they want this service we will be happy to accomodate as an extra fee.

Actually we are currently doing a utility marking effort at a local mall in support of an ALTA survey for another survey firm.

PM

Yes, that is a situation that sometimes should generate a locate. Problem with that is if the utilities are deeper than what I'm driving, they won't locate.
I was setting some NGS type monuments once (min 12' rods.) I was called back by a few utility owners who thought I was tring to pull a fast one. When I told them I would have a tractor w/an auger, they decided to mark their lines.

Hey Now! I was on a job a few months ago and was attemting to find out where a water main was. The owner had not yet marked the line but the tv cable was marked. I grabbed two metal pin flags an in a few moments, had some make shift witch sticks. Of course the shots I took on my "locate" stayed in a hidden file. After we located the pot-holed main, I check my original shots. Turns out I was pretty close! Haven't figure out how to get dephth yet;-)

We do a similar note.

> Not a whole lot you can do. You can't locate it until it is marked. I just did a topo and the local owner of the water system came out and located the lines with divining rods (bent coat hangers) and said their locator was broken. I informed the engineer of this. Can't wait for construction!

[sarcasm]Water Witching goes in P&R Category.[/sarcasm]

In Florida we are required to call in a ticket and give them three business days to respond. Fat lot of good those three days do as none of the utility companies will respond if they see the ticket is from a survey company. We have cut our fair share of phone lines but when the "phone cops" show up and start bitching at us, all we do is smile and hand them a copy of the ticket. Our general response is the "we followed the state laws so it is not our fault if you can't be bothered to mark your lines for us".

As for showing the lines on a drawing, we reference who spotted the lines and when and the location ticket number. We also say in our notes that the utility line locations are +/- five feet and are to be considered approximate in nature.

I too have a note similar to Sicilian Cowboy's, above.

Your contract or proposal is important in these situations. Spell out exactly what you can or will do, with the limitations for what you cannot do.

Our "call before you dig" service started replying to design tickets in the last few years, but it is often hit or miss, and they do not generally go on private land; right of ways only.

I have hired a private location company to mark out utilities on private sites. They too have wiggle room in their contracts.

Had a topo for a school in a small Westchester city, long before the "design ticket" concept was a reality. Retained a mark out company, who started painting up the water lines in the road. They were stopped by the city, since they are not part of the official "one call" system. They were worried that if the marks were wrong they could not be differentiated from the marks placed by the official system. Turns out, this private locating company works for the "one call" network as asked, but that did not count to this city.

It was a Catch 22 - private locator cannot mark in the right of way, and official locator will not mark for design, so, no marks to locate. It turned out that the architect did not really need the locations in the road, it was just part of the standard topo RFP.

KS

Its been a few years but I can remember being on the phone with a utility company about marking their utility and somewhere in the conversation I had mentioned we would be probing for the utilities that weren't marked on the ground, which drew a very excited reaction about the prospect of us probing around their utility.

Local professional association invited a representative from the one call system in for a presentation. The "Why will you not locate for design or boundary survey?" got the expected response. That is when I pulled out a 30 inch long driven rod monument and ask "What if I'm setting this?"

The look on his face was priceless and the response was to ask how often we set something like that. Once he understood if it is not in pavement Ohio surveys require minimum 30 inch depth and most are set with the top below grade we got down to serious discussion. The more questions he asked us the more his attitude changed. Several of us indicated we regularly dig 3 to 4 feet to recover old survey corners and he really got concerned. I haven't been working in the private sector since then and don't know if it had a lasting effect. I know that the information got back to the one call main office the next day.

When One call gets antsy about marking for our survey, we quote the state reg to them about corner pins.

"All monuments set shall be ferrous metal, or contain ferrous metal, not less than 1/2 inch in diameter, and not less than eighteen inches in length."

In my area a lot of utilities are not that deep. 🙂

there was a thread like this a while back and i posted a link to the surveying association (MALSCE) newsletter where I went through the process of explaining to DigSafe that we need markings for reasons other than planning. our department of safety clearly states that if you plan to pierce the surface of the ground, you need digsafe.

if you want me to look it up and repost, let me know. otherwise, you can search through MALSCE.org for the article: DigSafe Dig Safely

i wrote it as a follow up when i broke a gas service line and made the mistake of informing the gas company. got slapped with a fine and had to pay to repair the service.

funny thing, the installation of the gas service obliterated a monument

funnier thing: the gas company GIS showed the service on the other side of the building (i got to see the gis in the gis in the gas truck, not before i started attempting to recover the bound)

Why am I the middleman?

I appreciate all of the responses. Perhaps I could solicit some feedback on dealing with the request by the client/engineer stage of the game. I am not a utility locator by trade nor does my company offer this service. As a land surveyor, I believe utilities only play a part in my job when said utilities have an affect on property rights. Most of the time, this is accomplished by showing visible utilities.
I have no problem showing utilities if they are marked in the field. My frustation is with people who request utility information from surveyors only because it is a standard thing to ask for. In most cases, the engineer can get by with just using the information shown on the map provided by the utility owner. When did it become a surveyor's responsibilty to be the middleman between utility owner and engineer?

Side note: We have had many jobs where we were specifically hired to locate paint marks put there by a national SUE contractor. In these instances we are tasked with securing the utility owners names and all maps. Everyone involved in these jobs understands the process/ cost/ and time involved of getting the information. This is not the type of job I have issues with.

One that came across my desk yesterday:
Small existing building will have the interior renovated. Utilities will need to be upgraded inside the building. Survey is not involved/invited to the meetings between engineer/ architect/ building owner. My conversation with engineer went something like this,
me "what do you need?"
eng "topo showing the outside of the building."
me "do you need utilities shown?"
eng "Yeah, the utilities that feed from the main building (not part of the renovation and utilities are inside the buildings) will need to be upgraded so I'll need them all"
me "No one will mark private utilites inside a building"
eng "if that's the case, we'll just use the blueprints of the building we got at the meeting"

Is it just me who deals with idiots and people wanting to pass the buck?

Why am I the middleman?

> and people wanting to pass the buck?

The engineers call it 'Risk Management'

They try to offload as much risk and responsibility as they can

I know at least one firm who's entire quality control system is built around avoiding the possibility of being sued

Why am I the middleman?

Why be the middle man?

Those companies use fairly inexpensive equipment and charge about what we do.

Why not locate the utilities ourselves. (Design.)

Why am I the middleman?

Personally, I'd rather concentrate on surveying. I understand locating utilities may fill in the gaps of slow work but I'm a jack of enough trades. Besides, IF utilities are marked for a design ticket, it's no cost to anyone but the utility member. (and me as they keep raising fees!!)