Has anyone had experience using a Trimble 33249-00 Micro Centered antenna with an Ashtech Z-12 GPS receiver? I've found specs on the antenna supply voltage put out by the Z-12 along with the allowable input voltage range for the 33249-00, and those are compatible. I've also found specs for the preamp gain (around 38 or 39 dB) and the current draw (about 45 mA, maybe up to 60 mA) of Ashtech's geodetic antennas of the same vintage as the Z-12. However, I've had no luck finding gain and current specs for the 33249-00, so I don't know if they're grossly different than what the Z-12 expects or can supply.
Has anyone tried this? Or even tried the other way, an Ashtech antenna on a Trimble receiver of that vintage? Or knows the preamp gain and current draw of the 33249-00?
FYI, I'm wanting to purchase an old receiver and antenna as a low-cost approach to doing static surveys with OPUS. It appears that the Z-12 is better-documented than Trimble receivers such as the 4000SSi and easier to keep running as a long-past-end-of-life device, but it looks like old Trimble geodetic antennas are more readily available than similar Ashtech antennas.
Thanks!
Bill C, post: 441851, member: 11633 wrote: It appears that the Z-12 is better-documented than Trimble receivers such as the 4000SSi and easier to keep running as a long-past-end-of-life device
I'm curious what makes you say that. I sold my Z-12 years ago because I found the 4000-series Trimble receivers to be lighter, less power-hungry, more plentiful and just as reliable as the Z-12. I currently have a dozen or so 4000SSe and SSi receivers in occasional service.
I can't really help you with the initial question. I have mixed & matched receivers & antennas a few times over the years, but not that particular combination.
That said, I still use (on occasion) some 20ish year old receivers & antennas (all Novatel), and they seem to still work fine. EXCEPT for the fact that the RINEX files need to be dinked with to get the correct DATES! It's not that big a deal for me, but it is still a bit of a PITA.
Considering the fact that you can buy a brand new ig3 OPUS for about 2200 bucks, and that includes battery, charger, cables, etc. and custom OPUS submission software, it's a pretty damn good deal. It also has a recent igs14 antenna calibration, and modern firmware.
Just my 2-bits
Loyal
Loyal, post: 441856, member: 228 wrote:
you can buy a brand new ig3 OPUS for about 2200 bucks
Yeah, but you can buy a Trimble 4000 SSI receiver on Ebay for a few hundred at most. Power/data cable for another $50. These are good for "GPS on Benchmarks" campaigns.
astrodanco, post: 442005, member: 7558 wrote: Yeah, but you can buy a Trimble 4000 SSI receiver on Ebay for a few hundred at most.
I just picked up a 4000SSe and a 4000SSi for $77 shipped for the pair. Both are in good working order. (Don't forget that you'll need an antenna, too!)
Jim Frame, post: 442029, member: 10 wrote: I just picked up a 4000SSe and a 4000SSi for $77 shipped for the pair. Both are in good working order. (Don't forget that you'll need an antenna, too!)
When buying 4000ssi units, all other things being equal, the condition of the case is the determining factor for me. The Trimble cases are excellent and well worth searching for one in good or better shape bundled with a receiver.
Thanks, everyone, for the various comments. I had noticed that Trimble 4000 SSi receivers and compatible antennas are fairly plentiful on eBay, although at considerably higher prices than Jim's excellent deal. And related to Kent's comment, some of the Trimbles include nice-looking cases in good condition. What shifted my attention to the Ashtech Z-12 is that the Trimbles seem to more proprietary and locked-down, and documentation for them is harder to find. The issues are 1) Whether it's necessary to run ancient, proprietary software on an ancient operating system in order to download files or to collect streaming measurements from the receiver; 2) Ease of understanding what options and features are present or enabled in a receiver before buying it; 3) What's involved in replacing internal batteries; and 4) Whether installing / reinstalling firmware is licensed to a receiver's serial number or dependent upon no-longer-available service plan subscriptions.
If I'm missing something and anyone can dissuade my concerns, I'd welcome the news, because there are seemingly nice deals for Trimble equipment on eBay.
I quickly found a PDF of the Z-12 GPS Receiver Operation & Reference Manual, which includes details of the serial port protocols, e.g. for controlling the receiver and for streaming real-time, raw measurements from it. For the 4000 SSi, I haven't found a PDF of its User Guide, but just an online-readable-only version (I now see an original, paper copy on eBay). I have subsequently found PDFs of the Series 4000 Receiver Reference and the Series 4000 Application Guide. Unfortunately, none of those describe the details of the real-time, raw measurements, referring instead to the Model 4000 Remote Control Interface Manual, which I haven't found on the Web.
In addition to the available documentation of the Ashtech protocols, there's the NGS sharc software for downloading data from receivers. It's available as source code (i.e. open and readable), and I've already been able to build it on a contemporary Mac. It apparently works with the Z-12, but there's a note that support for Trimble is "not working." There's also GPSTk from the University of Texas, which is open-source and has the rtAshtech utility for collecting real-time, raw measurements from Ashtech receivers and outputting them as RINEX. I don't see an equivalent for Trimble.
The old Trimble MS-Windows utilities are available from the unavco.org website, but even though I'm a frequent user of virtual machines, running an old .exe in a Windows 9x or Windows XP virtual machine would be clunky and unappealing. Being able to use software that I can build and run on contemporary operating systems is much more attractive.
I see that both the 4000 SSi and the Z-12 might need to have their old internal batteries replaced. I've found more mentions of this for the Trimbles than for the Ashtechs, and for the Ashtechs it seems to be a simple procedure. With the Trimbles, the firmware needs to be reinstalled after replacing the internal batteries. That too requires running an old loader app in an old OS, which hopefully would all work in a virtual machine. As a one-time thing, that wouldn't be too bad, and I do see Trimble 4000 firmware and loaders on the UNAVCO website. The availability from UNAVCO implies that those firmware images should work on any 4000 SSi, but I've seen indication of Trimble firmware being license-keyed to individual serial numbers or needing an active support contract. Perhaps those are needed only for certain versions of the firmware or for re-enabling certain options and features, but I'm wary of ending up with a 4000 SSi that's brain-dead.
Another thing that gives me pause about the 4000 SSi is the large number, compared to the Z-12, of options and features that were disabled or enabled, or factory-installed, according to what was purchased from Trimble, e.g. operating modes and memory sizes. Getting details from an eBay vendor about exactly what is enabled and installed is likely to be difficult. Static, L1/L2 carrier phase is the mode of operation that probably "just works" despite any options (and L1 C/A navigation, for what it's worth), but I'm not yet certain of that.
I'd be happy to hear that static, dual-frequency carrier phase will just work on any 4000 SSi, that keeping one loaded with firmware is no problem, and that I wouldn't need to run Windows XP (or earlier) in order to get files and streaming data from the receiver. Being able to get files and streaming data via open-source software would be ideal.
Thanks again!
Your plans to stream data are more advanced than anything I've undertaken, so I'm not going to try to dissuade you from going the Z-12 route. But to address some of your Trimble questions:
Bill C, post: 442236, member: 11633 wrote: Unfortunately, none of those describe the details of the real-time, raw measurements, referring instead to the Model 4000 Remote Control Interface Manual, which I haven't found on the Web.
I don't have the Remote Control Interface Manual, though I do have PDFs of the Trimble Remote Controller Manual and the Trimble 4000SE/SSE/SSi RS-232 Interface Data Collector Format Specification Manual. I'd be happy to share those if desired, just let me know.
Bill C, post: 442236, member: 11633 wrote: The availability from UNAVCO implies that those firmware images should work on any 4000 SSi, but I've seen indication of Trimble firmware being license-keyed to individual serial numbers or needing an active support contract.
The loader executable appears to contain encrypted eligible serial numbers, though I'm not sophisticated enough to verify that. However, I've loaded firmware on several 4000SSi units following battery replacement, and all were acknowledged as eligible and the loads successful. I'm not sure I've reloaded an SSe, but I don't expect any problems.
I haven't tried running the loader in a VM, though I've bookmarked the page describing how to enable 16-bit application support on Windows 10. It's on my to-do list.
Replacing the batteries is pretty straightforward. The hardest part is the mechanical teardown, which requires a lot of disassembly. The trickiest thing for me was disengaging the black plastic clips that hold the two halves of the internal sheet metal cage together -- I broke one before I figured out the required technique (slide up, then out).
Bill C, post: 442236, member: 11633 wrote: Getting details from an eBay vendor about exactly what is enabled and installed is likely to be difficult. Static, L1/L2 carrier phase is the mode of operation that probably "just works" despite any options (and L1 C/A navigation, for what it's worth), but I'm not yet certain of that.
There were some SSi (and probably SSe) units that were sold without RAM boards, presumably for use as fixed RTK base stations. The first SSi that I bought (circa 2001) was one of these, and I paid a pretty penny to have a dealer enable the motherboard RAM (512k, as I recall) and add another 512k board. However, these seem to be rare, as none of the dozen or so other SSe and SSi receivers I've bought since are configured without RAM boards; with the exception of that first one, all are capable of storing observation data files.
It's worth noting that both the Z-12 and the Trimble 4000 series are so far past EOL that they can't be considered reliable for important applications. They're cheap enough that I don't mind leaving them unattended (I lock them down to discourage casual thieves, but I'm mostly worried about the tripods, which are the most expensive things in those setups), but given their age they can fail at any time. I only have one that actually crapped out -- it sometimes gives a "phase lock loop range error" and stops recording data, so I retired it for parts -- but I figure they're all on borrowed time.
Thank you for the further info, Jim. Understood about the ages of these receivers. I think I did come across a PDF on the Web of the Trimble Remote Controller Manual, but I would appreciate getting your copy of it and especially of the Trimble 4000SE/SSE/SSi RS-232 Interface Data Collector Format Specification Manual; thanks!. We can private message to arrange that.
I infer from what you wrote that the Trimble firmware loader doesn't require being licensed to an individual receiver's serial number, but rather works out-of-the-box for any receiver within a range of serial numbers. Is that the correct notion?
It sounds like you keep an old computer running an old version of Windows natively (not in a VM) for the purpose of running the firmware loader, and I'm guessing likewise for downloading observation files from the receivers. Is that correct? What version of Windows are you using, and which app or utility are you using for downloading files?
Bill C, post: 442310, member: 11633 wrote: It sounds like you keep an old computer running an old version of Windows natively (not in a VM) for the purpose of running the firmware loader, and I'm guessing likewise for downloading observation files from the receivers.
Yes on the loader, I currently run it on a creaky old laptop running XP, and that's about all I use that laptop for.
For downloading the receivers I use the current version of Trimble Data Transfer, which is available on the Trimble website at no charge. I use 9-pin serial port on my desktop, but I'm also set up to download them in the field on a Surface Pro 4 through a serial-to-usb interface cable. For the latter, I recommend getting one with a genuine FTDI chipset. The one I have works reliably.
Has anyone had experience using a Trimble 33249-00 Micro Centered antenna with an Ashtech Z-12 GPS receiver? I've found specs on the antenna supply voltage put out by the Z-12 along with the allowable input voltage range for the 33249-00, and those are compatible. I've also found specs for the preamp gain (around 38 or 39 dB) and the current draw (about 45 mA, maybe up to 60 mA) of Ashtech's geodetic antennas of the same vintage as the Z-12. However, I've had no luck finding gain and current specs for the 33249-00, so I don't know if they're grossly different than what the Z-12 expects or can supply.
Has anyone tried this? Or even tried the other way, an Ashtech antenna on a Trimble receiver of that vintage? Or knows the preamp gain and current draw of the 33249-00?
FYI, I'm wanting to purchase an old receiver and antenna as a low-cost approach to doing static surveys with OPUS. It appears that the Z-12 is better-documented than Trimble receivers such as the 4000SSi and easier to keep running as a long-past-end-of-life device, but it looks like old Trimble geodetic antennas are more readily available than similar Ashtech antennas.
Thanks!
I tried a Trimble micro centered l1.l2 antenna 22020-00 on an Ashtech z-12 and it works. There is a good website with specs on this site http://www.prc68.com/I/AshtechZ12.shtml
