Change will always happen, some bad and some good.
Growth can't continue forever. We need to find a workable economic model that doesn't require growth. If the population keeps on growing, resources will get strained. We're already seeing some of strain but it hasn't hit hard. If you turn 5% more land into houses and strip malls every year, you eventually run out of room. If you use 5% more oil every year, in the next 14 years you will use as much as in all history before this. I'll stop before this gets too P&R.
I agree with both of you to a certain extent. I probably haven't been in the game as long as you gentlemen, so I haven't witnessed as much. I'll be 48 in April and September will mark 30 years. I do believe the answer is to not give up. I think that people with Geo-spatial knowledge simply have to keep pursuing all the different alternatives available to them. And you'd be surprised what's out there, sporting events, movie sets etc, etc. Not saying those markets are for everyone or you're in the part of the Country that might have these opportunities but it doesn't mean you stop fighting.
Respectfully,
Ralph
time to quit - maybe so
We should all consistantly ask ourselves " Knowing what I know now would I still get into this situation?" if the answer is no then you neeed to change.
You should consistantly ask yourself " what should I be doing more of and what should I be doing less of in order to acheive my goals?"
Set your goals high, very high, don't let anything block your path to success, even land surveying!!!
> I can see the day when I will hang this all up and it is the last thing that I hope for. When I do, it is not going to be because of lowballers.
>
> They exist because of clients that do not care about what they are getting. The greed that fires the money pits also produces results that are far from favorable.
>
> Some people will overspend many dollars among their own to hide the facts and not even consider fair wages with more capable talents that have results they don't welcome.
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> So far I have been able to adapt and provide a respected service. Each and every new project has its own problem left over by some lowballer from decades ago.
>
> After talking with plenty of the lowballers and their clients, it is my conclusion that their position is that when they find a problem, it is up to the next person to fix it if they want it fixed.
>
> Good luck to you Bob.........
Not because of lowballers? How many of you guys buy "Made in China" cause it's cheaper? Nobody working in manufacturing nobody looking for surveys, it's that basic. Look in the mirror, the enemy is us.
After 35+ years of surveying I called it quits two years ago and have never looked back! I still miss it sometimes but have no desire to go back!!!
I guarantee you that there are some out there would hire a survey company from another country if it cost less and were legal.
Bob, Best Wishes
The problem is that there are actually TOO MANY surveyors. Once some of the marginal (bottom feeders) leave and attrition reduces the ranks even further, the remaining surveyors will begin to charge more for their services. Then, as more young helpers see their bosses making a good living, they will enter the work place as professional surveyors. The number of surveyors will increase and the problem will start all over again. By then, I’ll be too old to remember what I just said.
Lowballers
I read many messages on here from people who want the cheapest equipment, or something used, never buy new, that includes vehicles. And then you complain about clients that hire lowballers. Same thing, in my opinion.
Every piece of equipment I have bought has been the best I could buy, price was never a consideration. I have a niche that is profitable, but I think one reason it is profitable is because my clients know that I am using the best equipment to give them the best product. I have just one employee, and hire a person in the summer. We have 5 dual frequency Trimble receivers (four of them we use frequently, one is a backup), 2 fathometers, a Trimble GX scanner, a digital level with invar rods, 2 1" total stations with 1 mm edm, autocad, carlson, etc. No skimping.
So those of you who comlain about lowballers, and then turn around and want the cheapest total station, or buy a used station wagon with 150,000 miles on it...look in the mirror.
Lowballers
> I read many messages on here from people who want the cheapest equipment, or something used, never buy new, that includes vehicles. And then you complain about clients that hire lowballers. Same thing, in my opinion.
>
> Every piece of equipment I have bought has been the best I could buy, price was never a consideration. I have a niche that is profitable, but I think one reason it is profitable is because my clients know that I am using the best equipment to give them the best product. I have just one employee, and hire a person in the summer. We have 5 dual frequency Trimble receivers (four of them we use frequently, one is a backup), 2 fathometers, a Trimble GX scanner, a digital level with invar rods, 2 1" total stations with 1 mm edm, autocad, carlson, etc. No skimping.
>
> So those of you who comlain about lowballers, and then turn around and want the cheapest total station, or buy a used station wagon with 150,000 miles on it...look in the mirror.
I have heard that many cleints are asking for top of the line equipment only, many refuse to do business unless it is the absolutely most expensive equipment and vehicle, mainly because they like shiny things and extremely high multipliers.
No brainer...
Lowballers
GETTING A LITTLE HIGH & MIGHTY?
John Francis
I am apprentice, I didn't know what it was
OK, how much to buy all your survey equipment?
N
I don't know, it's a culture of the profession thing.
There never seems to be a shortage of Realtors but the better ones still seem to make a good living. Their bar for entry is extremely low.
I think it's the same with Attorneys although their bar for entry is much higher.
Lucas is right, as long as we treat boundary surveys as a commodity to be produced as fast as possible the prices will never rise.
here's a thought....
Put yourself together a power-point presentation of "what to look for in a good survey and how to avoid a bad survey"; get yourself on the continuing education bandwagon and pitch it to realtors and lawyers. Kind of like the ex-con gone good. That's my retirement plan. 😐
Lowballers
perhaps you are right, John. I did come across like that. But I get frustrated at what I see as a double standard. Buy cheap, but criticize others who sell cheap.
My point is that it is possible to be successful without being a cheapskate. I have always bought Trimble gear since 1986.
What the Chinese are doing is copying designs that were developed at great cost over many years, and then undercutting our manfacturers. Not just GPS, but also total stations. I for one will not buy their gear UNLESS they were to come up with some great innovation, not just a lower priced copy of US/European models.
Lowballers
> I read many messages on here from people who want the cheapest equipment, or something used, never buy new, that includes vehicles. And then you complain about clients that hire lowballers. Same thing, in my opinion.
As with a boundary problem, it depends. As the owner of a very small operation (one part-time assistant and me), buying the latest and greatest often doesn't makes sense because the equipment spends a lot of time on the shelf while I'm in the office. I did buy new equipment when I started out in 1993 (total station, data collector, auto level), though I also bought a 3-year-old truck at the time. I still use the total station and the level. I've bought *some* new equipment since (DNA03 digital level, a trio of PM2 receivers, a Toyota Tundra), but I've also picked up a bunch of used stuff, too (7 Trimble L1/L2 receivers, 1 each Geodimeter and Leica robots).
None of my gear is latest-and-greatest anymore, yet I'm still able to service clients ranging from mom-and-pops to large commercial to state and federal agencies. I keep my fees a bit on the high side of the regional market, and though the last two years have been slimmer than the previous five, I'm still doing fine.
Lowballers
Vehicles may have an impact on first impressions and office space may affect walk-in, but the type of equipment we use has little to do with low-balling or quality of service. I wont go into my opinion on your equipment being 'the best' but I do accept that most of what you have is/was the most expensive.
To say that one can provide a better product because of better equipment is a fallacy. I can pull 100 of the most recent surveys from the public record and prove that most are inferior, and few are superior to those from 40+ years ago. It is more likely that you are profitable because of your niche and perhaps there are a few clients in that niche who are impressed by the value of your equipment. This says less about the quality of your work and more about your ability to find the right clients. Kudos to you for that and I am truly envious. 20 years ago we had nothing but POS, auction surplus vehicles and we made money. 20 years ago we worked out of a ramshackle house on the edge of town and we made money. we did good work and our clients were always happy. Today we have newer vehicles, a decent office in a good location which is kept clean, and state of the art equipment (robotics, laser scanner, GPS, etc). We still do good work and our clients are still happy but we don't make much money. Its because we don't have as much work due, in no small part, to competition setting the cost so low that it truly makes no sense to do the work. We survive on loyal customers, reputation, industry contacts who are familiar with our quality and service, and the few customers who call only us to do their work.
Low-balling is a terrible scourge on our industry. Crews are gone, technicians are gone, office help is gone, equipment is aging, trucks are needing repair, and surveyors like Bob are quitting. This is all due to a severe lack of self respect or a value of services, not cheap, or cut-rate equipment (is there such a thing? please tell me where I can buy it). There is a simple flaw to how most surveyors philosophy and how they are approaching projects. Surveyors are not asking themselves what it will take to get the work done properly. Instead, they are asking what corners they need to cut to get the work. I agree that there is plenty of work for all of us to remain soluble but when 25% of us are setting such a low standard of expectations, they drag the rest of the industry down with them and they are probably doing crappy work to boot. I am not immune to this and it is a daily chore to remind myself that I don't need to get every job that I come across. Instead of doing two jobs for half price, I instead look to get one job for the same money and half the work (of doing two). As a surveyor you need to be a good technician AND a smart businessman. If you are one w/o the other, it is likely that you are hurting the public or the industry. If you are neither, please go get a a job at Walmart which is always in need of irresponsible door greeters. The pay is likely comparable to what you are under-charging now.
Lowballers
I think you are comparing apples to oranges. You don't survey out of an Escalade, do you?
You don't price shop other professionals, do you? Do you ask your doctor what your surgery will cost and then tell him you will shop around?
Would you trust the design of the cheapest engineer? How did that work out for them on I-35W?
You buy Trimble because you've used it and trusted it for many years. I buy Leica because I've used it and trusted it for many years. Price is not a factor, for me anyway. The support I've gotten from the dealers I've worked with is top-shelf.
Do you shop at Walmart? I can buy a 3-pack of Hanes boxer-Briefs and a box of cornflakes for less than I can in other stores. It's the same underwear and cereal in both places, why would go to the more expensive place?
If we can get our clients to look at us as a professional and not as a pack of tighty whitey's, we will be a lot better off......
Douglas Casement, PLS
Lowballers
> Do you shop at Walmart? I can buy a 3-pack of Hanes boxer-Briefs and a box of cornflakes for less than I can in other stores. It's the same underwear and cereal in both places, why would go to the more expensive place?
>
Do you hire retirees that are on social security and medicare so that you pay a low wage with no benefits and pass the savings on to your client also?
Ralph
Lowballers
I agree with you, Jim. Fees are directly proportional to self respect, in my opinion. Egos can be as dangerous as the lack of self esteem. more than equipment, I think fees say a lot to a customer who is looking for a job done right.
A decade ago I raised our rates when we lost a partner who was activated for 9-11. We did this to cut the amount of work which we were no longer able to produce, and it worked. The unexpected side-effect was that we lost all our bad clients! I was amazed that I no longer had complaints about not doing enough, unending calls for explanation of billings, failure to pays, etc. We moved into a bracket of clients who appreciated, even if not understanding what we did. We even made more money after raising rates! It is this one conundrum of cursing low-ballers in that I am ok with them keeping all the crappy clients off my books.
