AI Assistant
Notifications
Clear all

The Problem With Laser Levels

12 Posts
10 Users
0 Reactions
2,131 Views
davidgstoll
(@davidgstoll)
Posts: 649
Member
Topic starter
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

This is a spinoff of Mack's thread on the Best Way To Run Levels Solo.

I don't trust Laser Levels. You can deal with error in an Autolevel by balancing your shots, but you can't do the same with a Laser Level. An illustration:

The only way I can think of to deal with error in a Laser Level would be to present the same "face", and of course balanced shots, to both back and fore rods. That might be possible by mounting the Laser Level on a leveled, rotatable tribrach adapter and using some sort of gunsight "aimer", but I think using a laser is fraught with peril.

Dave


 
Posted : February 28, 2014 3:17 am
andy-j
(@andy-j)
Posts: 3114
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

Have you ever used one? Like every tool, if used properly they can be helpful.


 
Posted : February 28, 2014 5:24 am
chris-mills
(@chris-mills)
Posts: 715
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

One way of solving the "doubt" about the accuracy is to take a third reading for each set-up, on a point close to the laser level. Any adjustment error on this will be zero because it is so close. (Effectively the whole level run is then a giant three peg test).

Every time the laser is moved on you have a comparison between the old foresight delta (fore minus close-up) and the new backsight delta (old close-up minus old fore). They should be the same except the sign reversal. If they are then all is well; if not then you know what the adjustment error is and can mean the two.

You also have a second check in that the observed difference between alternate points should be the same as the sum of the two sub-sections.

It doesn't need any more walking, just an extra rod.

Whether it's a laser or a total station you still need to remember to keep the sightlines well clear of the ground and not shoot over hot hard surfaces. (Yes, it even gets warm in the UK!)


 
Posted : February 28, 2014 7:26 am
RFB
 RFB
(@rfb)
Posts: 1503
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

The ones I've used wouldn't turn on if not properly leveled.


 
Posted : February 28, 2014 7:26 am
James Johnston
(@james-johnston)
Posts: 624
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

I have used them. I trust them to provide results within specs.

Rotating the instrument by 180 degrees and reshooting the point will increase the accuracy by manually averaging the observations of each face.

Topcon recently came out with an auto leveling robotic robot for the construction industry. Mount on tripod, auto level, place over the mark, auto level. I would like to see this instrument in action, interesting idea.


 
Posted : February 28, 2014 7:40 am

bill93
(@bill93)
Posts: 9977
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

Like any level, there are two principle sources of error.

First, if it sweeps out a cone instead of a flat plane then balancing sight lengths will be important. A peg test should be run to see if it is good. Refraction and curvature also apply here.

Secondly, if the axis isn't vertical the tilt will throw things off. If you can rotate the device 180 without changing the vertical axis then you can detect the problem, and manual averaging will remove most of that error.


 
Posted : February 28, 2014 7:59 am
davidgstoll
(@davidgstoll)
Posts: 649
Member
Topic starter
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

Laser Levels work in generally the same way that Autolevels work, only instead of hanging a prism on wires, it's a motorized laser light. If it's in need of adjustment, the plane of light is tilted, so the error will be different in every direction. That's why the same peg test we use on an Autolevel won't work on a Laser Level. The adjustment on a Laser Level is more like the adjustment for a prism pole--it has to be rotated.

Dave


 
Posted : February 28, 2014 8:08 am
squowse
(@squowse)
Posts: 998
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

This is all true and I wouldn't have thought of it.
The divergence of a laser level is quite great as well (if you have ever seen it in the dark). I wouldn't trust a reading to less than 5mm and maybe a lot more over a long distance.

Personally I think they are best used for general construction site levels over distances up to max 100m, not control work.

Robotic total station is a much better way to transfer levels (on your own) if you have one available. C&R compensation as well. As long as both faces are shot the error on a trig levelling loop should be pretty good I would have thought. If you do a loop you'll know anyway.


 
Posted : February 28, 2014 9:37 am
Kris Morgan
(@kris-morgan)
Posts: 3855
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

We called that "double hubbing" when running a line that you were not going to close back.


 
Posted : February 28, 2014 10:14 am
Richard Davidson
(@richard-davidson)
Posts: 450
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

Read the User's Manual under Calibration


 
Posted : February 28, 2014 11:03 am

davidgstoll
(@davidgstoll)
Posts: 649
Member
Topic starter
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

Richard,

Thanks for the link. I think their peg test is not rigorous enough. There should be at least three 90-degree turns instead of just one 180-degree turn.

Dave


 
Posted : February 28, 2014 11:23 am
George Matica
(@george-matica)
Posts: 316
Member
Translate
English
Spanish
French
German
Italian
Portuguese
Russian
Chinese
Japanese
Korean
Arabic
Hindi
Dutch
Polish
Turkish
Vietnamese
Thai
Swedish
Danish
Finnish
Norwegian
Czech
Hungarian
Romanian
Greek
Hebrew
Indonesian
Malay
Ukrainian
Bulgarian
Croatian
Slovak
Slovenian
Serbian
Lithuanian
Latvian
Estonian
 

> Richard,
>
> Thanks for the link. I think their peg test is not rigorous enough. There should be at least three 90-degree turns instead of just one 180-degree turn.
>
>
>
> Dave

You failed to include calibration of the Y axis...


 
Posted : February 28, 2014 1:39 pm