Is this just the nature of the beast and the only way to truly escape it is to be your own PM?
If there are problems between the project management level staff and the production level staff then that is a failure of management above the PM level.?ÿ I'm removed from the day-to-day survey operations these days, but 3-4 times a year I meet with all the survey department staff.?ÿ At the end of these meeting, I kick all of the office guys out of the conference room and ask the field guys "What do you need to do your jobs efficiently that the office staff isn't giving you?".
Also, no one should be (on a regular basis) making estimates of the field time needed to complete a survey with input from the guys that are going to be doing it.?ÿ I tell my managers that 90% of the issues that come up with staff and clients can be traced back to failures in communication. Too many office guys have the "back in my day we could bang this out in 90 minutes" crappy attitude.?ÿ Well, back in your day the plan requirements didn't include smaller trees, of more detailed utility location, or whatever.?ÿ An organization rises or falls based on the leadership, not the production staff; managers that harp on the producers shortcomings without proposing solutions are of no use to me.?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ
I worked for a PLS from 2007-2016ish that ran a shop with 3 (2 man) crews and 2 drafters.
He used to always complain (to the other crews) how one of the crews always took too much time, didn't pick up enough shots, picked up too many shots, etc...
Looking back, I put way too much pressure on myself to crank out the jobs as fast as I could.?ÿ Sometimes to the point of being unsafe (It'll take longer to walk back to the rig and get cones than if we just set up and grab these shots quick). All because I didn't want to be THAT crew that he was complaining about.
I used to get so mad when we'd get back to the office early after finishing jobs we had no right getting done so quickly, because we were running from shot to shot, and not even get a "good job".?ÿ All we would get is the next job.
Now that it's been a few years since I've worked to that surveyor and I've had time to reflect, I realize that the crew he complained about WAS really slow and the pressure and anxiety I felt to get it done fast was all me.
Should he have complained to us about the slow crew??ÿ Probably not.
The job we got at 3pm after finishing 2 others??ÿ I just don't think he thought of it that way.?ÿ It's business, you finish one job you go to the next.
This got pretty long winded but the moral of the story is - Do it right, do it efficiently, do it safe.?ÿ The budget is on the PM.?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ?ÿ
I had a PM call a meeting of the LS's in the office to ask "How many shots should a crew be taking each day?"?ÿ He wanted to use that as a factor in his evaluation of the crews.?ÿ Somehow I couldn't get him to realize that was NOT a number he could use to base the effectiveness/efficiency of a crew.?ÿ He tried it anyway.?ÿ One crew chief just made sure he got his number of shots in per day by taking about twice as many shots as were necessary for locating C&G.?ÿ Instead of "start curve", "center of curve" and "end curve" he would just take a shot about every 10 feet.
Luckily that didn't last long when the draftsmen started complaining about the "mess" of points on the base drawings.?ÿ?ÿ
I didn't last long at that place.?ÿ Quantity over quality never fit with me.
Andy
"How many shots should a crew be taking each day?"?ÿ
I think there can be a place for that, but it's in developing a regimen for training/mentoring the crews rather than straightforward "you're not keeping up" evaluation.?ÿ
?ÿ ??If you can??t measure it, you can??t improve it.? - Peter Drucker?ÿ
Maybe, If you can't measure it, you can't tell if you improved it or not.
Also, let's not overlook the fact that for many firms which use the title "Project Manager", their job is not really to conduct surveys, but do paperwork, personnel and accounting.
Sure, they are technically supposed to oversee the actual surveying, but anyone who has done corporate surveying knows that it is damn near impossible to handhold clients, write up status reports, review billing, correct time cards, write new proposals, go to meetings with regional/corporate, do business development, etc. and still maintain a solid connection with a half dozen ongoing projects, much less the production team.
Thus the incentive shifts from "high performance and efficiency to get the job done right" to "get something, anything, done and shoved out the door so we can bill the client and I don't have to explain poor numbers to the higher-ups, because I already have enough on my plate without actually surveying".
I am all in favor of having someone watching those numbers and running status reports. But it doesn't have to be a PLS. That's administrative work. Once the contract is done and signed, let the team get to work and don't bug them.
Definitely don't do what my firm does, which is yank field crews from the middle of a job to run take care of a crisis, and then not tell the production lead that they won't be back on the first job for several days. Let them focus on the job at hand and take it across the finish line before giving them another one. At the very least break it up into steps that must be completed before they can be rerouted...
The project PLS should be hands-on. They really should be in the field at least 20-30% of the time (at least budget time for them to walk the site with the crew), maintain control over the execution of the job, and mentor the office and field personnel along the way. It's not difficult to do. A small highly skilled team dedicated to one job at a time is far more effective than a large group of half-skilled techs on an assembly line with no ownership of the job and a "manager" that couldn't care less about the quality of the product.
?ÿ
(Edit to add: someone that does not know how to do what the field crews or the office techs do should never be in charge of production, regardless of whether they have a stamp or not. I have worked for firms where the individual who "won" the work has to manage it in order to get sales credit. That's ridiculous. If they're good at winning work, let them go do more of that while the technical A team gets cracking on the actual project.)
I worked for a firm like that years ago. The head of the survey dept. would research the job (never visiting the site), this was before the GIS we have now. He would come up with an estimate and send us out. All production work, never saw what we shot. Then the engineer would look at things and decide we missed something we knew nothing about and back we'd go. So we started trying anticipate the engineer. Next thing I'm hearing is your jobs are coming in 10% over budget. Told him did you ever think that maybe your budgets are coming in 10% low? Got fired.
In my humble opinion, there are two other (external) factors involved, at least in my area:
One is the fact that the developable areas are getting into lower quality, lower value, as the better parcels have already been bought and improved. The second is that this business is often driven by client based demand.?ÿ
@rover83 This is one of the reasons I like to differentiate between the roles of Project Surveyor and Survey Project Manager
Yeah, the first PLS I worked under said something about hitting 500 topo shots a day once.?ÿ For a while after that I thought I was doing terrible if I didn't get that many regardless of how inconvenient of terrain I was working in.?ÿ I like to think I make draftsmen largely obsolete, at least for topos.?ÿ I use every trick in the book for auto-linework if it's setup.?ÿ It takes about 2 minutes to draft 10,000 of my topo points.
Anyway, yeah spamming points is pretty weak.
Yeah, every place I've worked so far has had PMs and then survey managers as separate positions.
My dad used to ask us "how'd you make out today?"
We'd reply, "Fred, we weren't makin out, we were surveying".
He was my dad, but in the context of the question, he was a surveyor, and I was too. Thus the dis respectful use of his first name.
I don't think he fully grasped the faux pas, because he'd forget, and do it again, next week. I think this is the core problem of the deal though.
Office people who think field crew, who are in varying degrees of development are "makin out".
It's wild. Someone who works in the field sometimes SEES the PM, or office people as "making out", likewise. Not understanding the high value of a good office manager.
A good PM is a real treasure. Proper pricing, and scheduling and job preparation require in depth knowledge of business, and market, and more.
Now, where's that all time great cartoon?
Rodman dreams of being party chief.
Party chief dreams of being PM/owner.
PM owner dreams of being Rodman.
I miss my dad's question today. I'd give anything to hear it again. "Making out" today, means finding a good laptop, and scheduling a new transmission for the van.
I've come around to my dad's way of thinking.
Nate
?ÿ
?ÿ
Have you noticed, the older you get, the smarter your dad gets?
One of our more seasoned PLS's has a great statement about this type of situation... "Nothing is impossible to the man or woman who doesn't have to do the work". I'll just leave it at that?ÿ 😉
