I agree with Kris
"Catch 22" as I've heard it phrased before. The title companies rely on your survey. The surveyor relies on the title company for the commitment. The rules are clear in my mind as to where the reliance starts and stops for both parties. Just because you have a title report does not mean by any stretch of the mind that you are relieved of doing what a prudent surveyor should while performing the necessary research. The title companies have an obligation of their own to provide competent research as to title and encumbrances on the site and provide the information to their client and the surveyor.
There have been many times where I have found information that the title company did not. It's a collective effort to, at the end, provide a well developed product by both the title company and surveyor.
I agree with Kris
"Just because you have a title report does not mean by any stretch of the mind that you are relieved of doing what a prudent surveyor should while performing the necessary research." It certainly does! A prudent surveyor will follow the ALTA Standards, which clearly state that all documents which are to be referenced "shall be furnished to the surveyor.: You are not supposed to do further research! If you do, you are defeating the intent of the ALTA. It is specifically not your job to perform further research. This is the beauty of the ALTA, which many of you seem to miss.
"There have been many times where I have found information that the title company did not." Same here - and 99% of the time the title company refuses to list it in their report, so I can't show it on my map. Just because a document exists doesn't mean that that they won't insure over it...
Jim
"I've yet to have one where they did the research for me. I don't care what the rules state, they won't do it."
It's a contractual issue for me, as I include the Standards in my contract, and they clearly state that the client provides the documents. I get nothing - I show nothing.
While I will never certify to compliance nor noncompliance with zoning ordinances, use ordinances, etc., I have no problem with delineating current zoning requirements and stating that is what they are. Beyond that is the Architect's and zoning compliance officer's purview and I totally remove my self from the equation.
SJ
Paul - Table A - Option Six 2011 ALTA Standards
Just push them off until 2011 and then list the current info and you're good;-)
What am I missing here?
Jim,
Which comes first, your state regs or the ALTA regs? Seems to me you have an obligation to adhere to the state regs first. What am I missing here? Maybe I missed something during the course of discussion.
In Virginia, for instance, The ALTA survey would fall under at least one of the services regulated by the board. Stripping the title "ALTA.." and leaving the rest to be reviewed by the board, would leave one up for a fine of not doing the proper research.
I always viewed the ALTA regs as being in addition to the state regs. The Table A options are not necessarily options depending on your state.
> Think about it.....the buyer wants to know if the plans for the development of that lot can be done under the CURRENT zoning.
That does not wash with me. A simple plan of a concept development and a 30 min visit with city planning will answer all the buyers questions.
I would like to hear Gary Kents input on this option. If it is like you say Sicilian, then why not spell it out in option 6?
PAUL THIS PROTECTS YOU
> ... WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT YOU ARE NOT LIABLE FOR THE CITATION OF THE OPINIONS OF OTHERS BECAUSE YOU CANNOT CERTIFY TO IT...
Good observation Dane.
> ...I have no problem with delineating current zoning requirements and stating that is what they are.
Nor do I Stephen.
Jim
>Same here - and 99% of the time the title company refuses to list it in their report, so I can't show it on my map.
Interesting. I have shown things that the title company missed or erred in and have shown them on the survey and have never had one bounced back by a title company. If I know about something that impacts a property I place it on the map. The title company does not dictate to me or sign the map. I fail to understand the words I can't show it on my map
Incorrect
> "Since a future development does not exist on site, that can only mean codes that were in effect for the current on site buildings."
>
> I can't believe you would actually think this...
Believe it! If option six meant current codes, then just WHY is it being changed in the 2001 ALTA standards that has the word "current" in the new option 6.
Incorrect
> .... WHY is it being changed in the 20(1)1 ALTA standards that has the word "current" in the new option 6.
I think that it is a clarification rather than a change in intent. It is true that the old version can be interpreted different ways. It was obviously an issue that has come up, or they would not have changed it.
Incorrect _ Mark
> I think that it is a clarification rather than a change in intent.
Clarification is good. I just cannot understand why the word 'current' was not placed in option 6 to begin with. A lot of surveyors and attorneys time went into the standards, one would think that someone would have picked up on option 6's ambiguous meaning prior to the release of the 2005 standards.
PS Thanx for catching that year error 🙂
I'm with you on that Paul
> >Same here - and 99% of the time the title company refuses to list it in their report, so I can't show it on my map.
>
> Interesting. I have shown things that the title company missed or erred in and have shown them on the survey and have never had one bounced back by a title company. If I know about something that impacts a property I place it on the map. The title company does not dictate to me or sign the map. I fail to understand the words I can't show it on my map
I'm with you on that one, Paul. You, as the surveyor, fail to do your own adequate research on top of what many title companies provide and you could be open to BPELS coming down on you hard as well as opening yourself up to a cause for negligence.
What am I missing here?
"Which comes first, your state regs or the ALTA regs? Seems to me you have an obligation to adhere to the state regs first."
My State regs say nothing about easements, only boundary info. I am referring to easements, not boundary info - so maybe I missed something also.
As far as title companies go, yes, it is a team effort, and usually we work together. They sometimes update or amend their report based on information I provide, but sometimes they refuse to add items they do not feel are valid.
Jim
"I fail to understand the words I can't show it on my map"
Once you deal with the Assistant U.S. Attorney you may still not understand it, but you will know it happens...
Incorrect _ Mark
I can't even obtain copies of old zoning codes. Where do you find them? I certainly will not take on the non-survey related task of determining when a building was constructed!
Jim
> I can't even obtain copies of old zoning codes. Where do you find them?
City archives
