That sounds good, JB, if the client will buy it. What I think they want to know is current zoning restrictions for new construction. That is seldom a straightforward answer. Even on a regular rectangular lot, sometimes you can measure the setback by averaging the other buildings on the street, sometimes it's not even clear what will be the front, back & side yards. Usually, the site plan is negotiated with the planners and if some rule needs to get bent, you pay them more money and get a variance.
Many times, the people ordering an ALTA don't even know why they checked certain boxes. If Paul can convince them that the property is fully developed and Item 6 is irrelevant, that would be the best. If not, then the contract would have to be real specific on what data would be shown on the map to comply with Item 6.
No Item #1 -- No monuments to be set ?? - 6th
> Of the table A items 6 is not a big deal, just report, that is all that is required.
I agree. You can report if you do the following, using this particular ALTA i posted about as an example..
1. Acquire the zoning code for the 1939 building
2. Acquire the zoning code for the 1955 bulding.
3. Check the zoning code for the 1955 building for changes for the 1960 addition and or new structure.
4. Understand fully what restrictions were in affect for all there developments, without others interpetations or opinions for those restrictions.
Repeat it all for building codes. They are different animals.
If you can do that, then you are way beyond me as far as option 6 goes.
Current zoning is always a part of an ALTA, ones that I do.
> I don't see any gottchas in item 6.
Well..take a look through an attorneys eyes, if it came to a push/shove thing, and if you did not fully research the codes for the time of building construction then a big ol GOTCHA can jump up and bite ya!
If surveyors make a 10 min stopover at the zoning counter. Write down a few names of counter personell regarding option 6 requirements, place the information and source of it on thier map thinking that they have covered all bases..strike 3, you are out.
That statement in the Table A note, says to me, that if the surveyor certifies to option 6 then the surveyor has first hand knowledge of all of option 6.
> It is the regs pertaining to new construction that are of interest.
Keep on thinking that. That's fine if option 6 is not a part of the survey.
> You are not being asked to find and verify historic zoning info.
The words "applicable" can only be related to what exists on site, not for future development.
>
> Another issue I'd have is just how is the surveyor supposed do depict the zoning information? It's not a simple matter of showing a few setback lines or counting a few parking stalls. Setbacks are entirely dependent upon building type, height, etc. They vary with the conditions.
John,
Item 6 does not require a the zoning be depicted, just listed. It is definitely out of the realm of surveying to determine whether a building complies - and I have been asked to do so via non-standard certs and attorny requests. We are only to report the requirements and where we got them from. If any interpretation is required, then that is not our thing.
Option 6
Looking at this I agree that a listing is what is being asked. However, it goes on to say "restrictions disclosed by applicable zoning or building codes"
Since a future development does not exist on site, that can only mean codes that were in effect for the current on site buildings.
The statement that says "The source of such information must be disclosed" can only mean that the information was taking straight from the code books in effect at the time of construction. It cannot mean that the source was from counter personell since that would be contrary to the "Special Note" in Table A that says a surveyor cannot certify based on anothers opinion or interpetation.
If option 6 was not full of pit falls, then just WHY is there a special note in Table A regarding it?
Simply ask the title company to supply you with the Zoning Endorsement that is typically covered in schedule B of the commitment. The title company is the one who is required to get the letter. The endorsements can only be given by the zoning official and usually (where I'm from) cost about $25. Put a note on the plat with regards to item 6 and reference the zoning endorsement.
Option 6
Per the note "...It may be necessary for the surveyor to qualify or expand upon the description of these items..."
Based on the note you can negotiate with the client to list only current codes.
I definitely see your point, but I've never heard of a case coming back on a surveyor because he didn't research to 1939 zoning codes.
Table A - Option Six ALTA Standards - Craig
> Simply ask the title company to supply you with the Zoning Endorsement that is typically covered in schedule B of the commitment. The title company is the one who is required to get the letter. The endorsements can only be given by the zoning official and usually (where I'm from) cost about $25. Put a note on the plat with regards to item 6 and reference the zoning endorsement.
That is a great idea and I will pass that on to my client.
Paul you may be on to something.
First, yes you can state the rules in place at the time of the building. Should no other changes have been made to the building, then it may become a non-conforming building that is grandfathered in.
The rub is, most places, if you upgrade or change anything, then that part must meet the current code.
So you could literally have a building that has parts current to 1939 all the way up to 2010 and would have to list them all.
The fact that it may have been grandfathered in doesn't preclude it from being upgraded and most buildings will have to come up to current code should the use of it change, i.e. churches to anything else.
Kris you may be on to something.
>
> So you could literally have a building that has parts current to 1939 all the way up to 2010 and would have to list them all.
Good point Kris! I am sure that both buildings, a motel and an Enterprise Rental Car facility have gone through changes like you mentioned.
Option 6 _ Ryan
> I definitely see your point, but I've never heard of a case coming back on a surveyor because he didn't research to 1939 zoning codes.
Nor have I but that is not a guarantee that it could not happen. Let's suppose there was a conflict between two surveys and the opposing attorney asks something like "Well, did you get use 1939 code book for your source and did you follow through on all alterations of the 1939 building through out the years and address those code books (Thanks Kris!)"
There are enough hooks in an ALTA to hang surveyors, lets avoid whatever ones we can. That's my take.
Would not the job of the opposing attorney be to tear apart the other survey any way he could?
Table A - Option Six ALTA Standards _ Ryan
Nope, the current surveyor is directly in the picture. You would list the current setbacks, etc. SO THAT the architect can lay in his design correctly. That is the main purpose of Item 6.
All buildings build prior to the current spec are "grandfathered" and thus not subject to the current code. Only new construction is governed by the new requirements.
PAUL THIS PROTECTS YOU
i HAVE A DIFFERENT READING OF YOUR QUOTE ABOUT CERTIFICATION. WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT YOU ARE NOT LIABLE FOR THE CITATION OF THE OPINIONS OF OTHERS BECAUSE YOU CANNOT CERTIFY TO IT. WE DO NOT NORMALLY CREATE FLOOD ZONE MAPPING, BUT WE ARE OFTEN ASKED ON AN ALTA TO REPORT WHAT THE FLOOD ZONE IS FOR THE SUBJECT PROPERTY OF THE ALTA. REPORTING ZONING IS THE SAME,JUST THAT REPORTING.
> Nope, the current surveyor is directly in the picture. You would list the current setbacks, etc. SO THAT the architect can lay in his design correctly. That is the main purpose of Item 6.
Two flaws in that statement. One the architects design determines setbacks and restrictions. A single story building will have one setback, multi level another, sub grade parking yet another.
You CANNOT determine a future setback without a plan.
You better re read option 6 again. Focus on the word 'restrictions' It is impossible to state restrictions on something that does not yet exist. I.E. A future building
Since the existing buildings have already been built and signed off on, the zoning regs by which they were built are no longer applicable (unless they have not changed in 71 years). Nobody is going to revisit whether the building department should have signed off on the occupancy permits in 39 and 55.
The applicable zoning regs are those under which NEW construction would need to conform to should it happen today.
But you've already made your decision, so it's all academic with respect to your current survey.
If you doubt what we're all telling you, that #6 applies to current zoning, write Gary Kent and ask the question.
In most cases, one (regardless of profession) would be hard pressed to verify zoning regs in existence on the date of construction for an older building. It just makes no sense that the ALTA standards would exist for so long with that item in place and no one on any of the committees that revisit those standards every 2 to 5 years would not thinnk of this.
I'd venture to say that Item 6 is referring to the zoning restrictions that exist NOW, at the time of the survey.
Zoning does not refer to a specific building....it refers to the size and shape of what may be built upon the lot.
Think about it.....the buyer wants to know if the plans for the development of that lot can be done under the CURRENT zoning.
Otherwise, he needs to take into account the cost of variances, or the cost benefit analysis of whether or not to buy a lot that may not be "developable" for his use without tremendous additional expense.
No one is asking you to say what the zoning will be on some future date..
Option 6 _ Ryan
There is less liability in an ALTA survey than any other type - you are not responsible for any research with the possible exception of finding utility as-built drawings. Can't beat that...
Incorrect
"Since a future development does not exist on site, that can only mean codes that were in effect for the current on site buildings."
I can't believe you would actually think this...
Jim
I've yet to have one where they did the research for me. I don't care what the rules state, they won't do it. That and I do my own research anyway.
Table A - Option Six 2011 ALTA Standards
6. _____ (a) Current zoning classification, as provided by the insurer.
_____ (b) Current zoning classification and building setback requirements, height and floor space area restrictions as set forth in that classification, as provided by the insurer. If none, so state.
So in a few months this will change.
