Surveyors that don't record

Many states do not require recording of surveys. The other [msg=313462]thread[/msg] currently asking about recording requirements makes this clear. Finding any records of private surveys is rare in some parts of the country.

AT one time many surveyors would record their survey around here, especially when it was not placed in the recent deed and when it impacted the public by showing major changes in the description.

The clerk will record most anything you bring in from bill of sales to hand written affidavits, surveys, drawings, etc.....

At $42 for the first page and more for each following page and around $40 for half plat page, clients don't want to be charged for that expense.

When I want to know something about a rod I've found with a cap on it, I call that surveyor and let them know that if they want their work to be honored and to be relocated, send me a copy cause it is not of public record and IMVHO it don't mean "s&~@t".

:snarky:

You must be located in Arkansas, its extremely frustrating.

When I run into that I make the call. I just got back two letters today. One thanked me and is setting pins and filing his map. The other is making it tough on himself.
I understand an oversight. I won't tolerate a criminal business model. It cheapens our products and hastens the death of our survey infrastructure.
Call them. You will either help a good guy stay out of trouble or get a bad guy off the street...
My .02, Tom

Not required to record here, so I don't!

In Ohio there's no way to "record" surveys that don't involve some sort of court settlement or competed land transaction.

Often there's a way for surveys to make it into an "un-official", record, but only in those counties that perform "pre-approvals", of surveys.

Many counties that used to perform pre-approvals have dispensed with that service, even though, often, their county regulations require or offer such a service.

Simply put, if a survey is pre-approved, most counties(that pre-approved), would keep a copy of the survey in their "survey" files ... not truly a public record, but a record nonethess.

I'm sure there are county engineers ... somewhere in Ohio that actually "record"(used very loosely), in the "county engineer's" records of surveys. Personally, I don't know of any counties that actually do this.

In some counties, I have actually seen corner recovery maps/documents ... that were in recorded(again, used very loosely), surveys.

It's very frustrating to perform a survey, finding pins(and occupation lines), not agreeing with record, only to find(from the owner or a neighbor), that a survey was performed ... not filed and not recorded, BUT nonetheless "used" by adjoining neighbors.

I've even been involved with a survey, where multiple configurations(through the years), were made and a survey of 1995 was used to determine lines, while a survey from 1975 was "later" recorded as the deed of record.

VERY unnerving...

I'm obviously in a state that mandates the depositing of a survey plat, if a marker is established that purports the location of a property line or corner.

The question and dilemma that I posed in the original post is only apropos to those who practice in mandated recording states.

Therefor any response by those in non recording states is antithetical, and adds nothing to the discussion.

from your first post ...

"Is this a problem in other parts of the country?"

> from your first post ...
>
> "Is this a problem in other parts of the country?"

Right - Referring to surveyors that neglect to deposit a survey plat, although their practice act mandates it.

Chill. It's a public forum, and some offer information that you don't want to hear. Admonishing someone for not answering exactly what you wanted to know won't win friends or influence anyone. Of course it's a problem in other parts of the country. Some surveyors are more negligent than others. No one state has a monopoly on "stupid".

What's your real question? How you should deal with it? Or did you just want to know if it's a problem anywhere else?

Mr. Adams,

I do not to understand why a licensed individual, who knows the rules, the laws and regulations knowingly fails preform his fiduciary duty. - It honestly bewilders me.

The non recording of a document that is mandated to be deposited by state law, is simple disregard to the license that he holds.

But, it happens all the time. - Why?

>
> But, it happens all the time. - Why?

Perhaps we should be intellectually honest.

Why do we let this happen?

Maybe that's the real the problem.

You have 3 options...

1) do nothing

2) call the offending party and tell them to file their map or you will report them to the board

3) document the situation and submit your findings in a report to the board

I have deposited over 2,000 LSPS in my county surveyor index and can make several observations, where depositing is a record of monuments set and found, as opposed to recording, which is a public notice of title.

- Most professional land surveyors follow all the laws as a matter of pride. This particular law is generally followed and a few slip by the best of them. Pursuing the good surveyors through the state board will result in the state board requesting the surveyor to get the plat deposited. This has occurred when a respectful letter produced no results.

- A few surveyors are mavericks that for whatever reason, fail to follow this or any other law. These are the ones that cause harm to the public and embarrass the profession. A letter or email helps them remember to do this, and in so doing you have complied with your duty as a professional to police our own camp.

- A few surveyors, unfortunately, deposit and record LSP's for the sole purpose of alerting the world that they are superior surveyors and can not find it in their heart to accept any of the previously established monuments set by inferior surveyors so this new record must be filed to describe all the new pin gardens that have been planted.

Off all the above, the later is by far the most harmful to the public and most embarrassing to the profession. The public laughs at us for planting pin gardens.

I have found that a letter or email to the surveyors who do not file ANY plats sometimes works, but, by definition, they do not follow the rules so we are back to policing our own camp, and it is in all our best interest to do so, at least with a kind letter.

In the 28 years that this deposit law has been in effect, I have observed a general raising of the professional bar at the public's benefit. I have also observed a reduction in the number of pincushions. Of course, not complete elimination of pincushions, but the fewer, the better for all.

Sometimes contacting another surveyor about their lack of compliance can be nasty. I tell all the local surveyors in my county that I am willing to take their complaint and send kind letters to the offenders under my name as county surveyor.

We're all in it together.

ww CO PLS

> I'm obviously in a state that mandates the depositing of a survey plat, if a marker is established that purports the location of a property line or corner.
>
> The question and dilemma that I posed in the original post is only apropos to those who practice in mandated recording states.
>
> Therefor any response by those in non recording states is antithetical, and adds nothing to the discussion.

Although Ohio is a not a recording state I believe my response was to the point. Yes it is a problem in other parts of the county. I support recording of surveys and have, with client permission, filed surveys with county engineers that keep plats and index them to the original Ohio surveys. I have a slight difference of opinion with RETIRED69 stating "In Ohio there's no way to "record" surveys that don't involve some sort of court settlement or competed land transaction."

As I mentioned in the "[msg=313521]Recording of Surveys[/msg]" thread there is a provision for recording a surveyors affidavit. Many years ago I recorded a surveyors affidavit when the client declined to record a corrective deed. The process for recording a corrective deed in that county would have included filing a plat in the engineers survey records. While I could have filed a plat with the county engineer these survey records were not indexed to the deeds. I wanted to get the plat indexed to the deeds of record. My reasoning was the survey required extensive research beyond the recorded deeds. Many of the recorded deeds appeared to have been written without actual survey, creating extensive conflicts. The county recorder refused to record a document showing conflicts. Finally the county prosecutor wrote a letter stating that the recorder was required by law to accept the document and was not responsible if the conflicts were questioned. The recorder first recorded the letter then added a note to the plat cross indexing the letter.

If you are in Ohio working for the U.S. Forest Service, Wayne National Forest, they require completion of corner record cards. I believe the Forest Service records these in the county when the survey is completed. This is in compliance with U.S. Forest Service "7150.6 - National Information Requirements, 7152.03 - Policy 1. Legal c. Land survey plats and land corner recordation certificates shall be recorded and filed as a public record."

Whether or not a REQUIREMENT exists for public perpetuation of surveys, it is viewed by me as courtesy to make my surveys as conveniently locatable as possible for all current and future surveyors. My work is based almost entirely on monuments and other data that were generated by my predecessors. I cannot personally thank most of them as they are surveying streets of gold these days at a very high elevation above sea level. I'm simply paying it forward, as they say.

It happens because either the surveyors, or the surveyor's board in your state, don't have any cajones. Turn in the offending party.

Land Surveyor: If you want my advise, I see only one thing to do when I run into similar situations. Don't assume, just find out. If you can see their pins with their numbers on them, look up who they are and give them a call. Be professional and polite. Tell them that you ran across some of their pins and you have tried to look up their plat and can't find it. Maybe they could help you out. Could they have forgot to file it? Did they take it in and the clerk never got it recorded or recorded it in the wrong place? Maybe they will share the plat with you and thank you profusely for pointing it out. Maybe they are up to no good, I don't know. But I suggest you approach it with giving them the benefit of the doubt until you see what happened.

I had a similar experience with finding a monument that another surveyor had set, and there was no monument record on it. They are supposed to file monuments records in this state. I called the guy up and told them that I couldn't find a record. I know that sometimes they get misfiled and/or that sometimes the surveyor forgets to file it. They guy thanked me and said he would take care of it and sent me a copy of the record. He told me that he breaks down a very large number of sections in this part of the state, and that he might have over 100 records to file each year. He said he is not surprised to find that one or two might slip through the cracks. In the case of monument records, too, I have sometimes found where they are misfiled by the state.

I actually made a friend through the process of calling the surveyor first and not just assuming he was negligent and running to the phone to report him to the board.

In my humble opinion, your first professional responsibility is to call up the surveyor and get his response. It is your responsibility because (1) it is the appropriate research you need to do to find out how those monuments were set in order to properly carry out your survey, and (2) professional courtesy and making sure you know the story before ratting the other surveyor out to the board.

> ...
> I've thought about contacting the surveyors, but I've decide not to, because their points check out real good and the geometry is well within acceptable tolerances.
>
> Am I missing something here, but the state I'm requires that a plat to be deposited in the appropriate county agency whenever a monument is set to perpetuate the location of a property corner.
>
> Maybe I should contact these guys, but I don't want to be a trouble maker.

Not sure which recording state you are in but here in the great state of Oregon, if I knew someone was setting monuments for property corners and not filing maps (which is required) I will call them. Maybe they simply forgot. Most of the time people thank a fellow professional for the call. Then if a record is not filed, comes the hard but necessary part, a complaint to the OSBEE boys (our board of registration). That is the LAW. No if, ands, or but the monument fits acceptable tolerances, about it. It is not acceptable or legal for someone to set a monument and not file a survey.

Before I am fried and dyed, I did say they will get a phone call first.

If you DON'T contact them you ARE the trouble maker. Think long term for the public. You have the benefit of knowing who set it but 10 years later when the cap falls off the rebar or the cap is sun-faded, and the current owner is dead or can't remember who surveyed their lot, how is anyone supposed to know. If it was set when recording a map is required and a map isn't recorded it will possibly be assumed it wasn't set by a PLS. Even if it was, if he/she didn't do what they were supposed to, how professional is that?