Surveying on Federal Property

My understanding is no.

But the feds might have requirements as to licensing.

My experience has been that the Fed does not care what the states say. If you are on federal property and are working for them they hold all of the cards. Several years ago I was contracted to provide photo control for several airbases across the US. An un-named state seemed to have a problem with it but the US Air Force took the approach that their airbase was sovereign and thus did not fall under local state laws.

To this point I do not think the BLM or Forest Service surveyors need to be licensed in the states they work if they are working on federal lands.

You might also want to check the state in questions definition of Land Surveying, some do not include anything but boundary work.

I have experienced same as John, Feds don’t care what state regs are if on fed property. Around here they continually hire non-licensed people to do surveying projects on their property.
I have had them tell me that regardless of our state statute that allows surveyor’s access to Monumentation, that does not extend to monuments on fed property. Unless it has changed recently federal surveyors do not have to be licensed to survey their boundaries. I always thought that was funny because if you ask the feds whose boundary line they are surveying they will exclaim “Our Boundary”. As a surveyor I always thought that a boundary represents at least two sides by definition.

This my take on it, and I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. If the Feds or any other group wants to have a non licensed employee survey the boundary between the Feds and a private they can, but they have to be liable for the work. If you as a private surveyor contract to provide surveying services to another party, be it private individual, corporation, or governmental, you have to abide by state law concerning license. Some states limit the surveyors license to boundary, and will let anyone do topo. Most regulatory boards do not want to address the licensing issue on government work for the simple reason that most of the are in the business, and hope that by being quite they can get a contract with that agency some day.

This is my personal opinion and does not reflect any policy, it is just my $0.02 worth.

Only the BLM surveyors have been granted federal authority to survey federal lands. All other surveyors (including FS surveyors) operate under the survey laws of the state the land being surveyed is located. One possible exception are surveys on tribal and military lands. Although interestingly, Calif courts recently ruled that state licensing laws still apply on sovereign tribal lands in certain instances.

Just to clarify my point. My comments only apply to working within the boundaries of the federal land. If you are determining the exterior boundary then you most certainly are required to be licensed or work for the BLM. In my opion.

John,
In your experience is that how the BLM surveyors operate in Oregon?
In Alaska most of the BLM surveyors I have been in contact with are licensed but that is by choice not a requirement from what I understand. I have not seen a requirement that the BLM surveyor be licensed to survey exterior bndry.
All of the possessiveness that I have run into concerning fed land has been in relation to military facilities. They seem to have a bad attitude toward the local public. Superior !

I would think that if you have a contract with a Federal agency and all they want is some topo information, a license probably would not be required as it is not determining boundaries.

A license in a different State would be irrelevant.

As a general note, Federal boundaries are determined by BLM land surveyors under BLM authority and if in fact Forest Service land surveyors are used by the FS, then they use their State license (and of course I have my doubts about that little technicality?)

Obviously, private surveyors can determine the boundaries between Federal and Private lands, if in fact the private landowner is the client.

Keith

Bear Bait,

I was not referring to any particular agency. As you mentioned, I do not think that any federal agencies require state licensure but I do believe many federal employees are licensed. I was just trying to relate my experiences with providing control surveys for the federal government on federal lands. That experience was that since I was working within there property they did not feel that the state had any say.

Please note, that there are only two land survey authorizations:

1. BLM for Federal land

2. State license for private land

After all is said and done, it would not surprise me that someone in authority on a military base or a National Park, etc. may have the attitude that they only want some topo work done for whatever reason and the heck with any rules and regulations on land surveys.

Be on your own and your license!

Keith

I would agree with respects to boundary surveys but the original question was based on non-boundary types of surveys. I can say for a fact that the BLM does not cover these non-boundary issues. In a previous life I worked for a small defense agency that was responsible for providing a significant deal of work on military bases. As a matter of fact, they were the only place we mapped within the borders of the the US. If we were mapping you, you had probably better start digging bunkers and graves. That being said, there are numerous federal agencies that can survey across the US including the NGS, USACE, USGS and FHWS.

Federally owned land falls into two categories:

1. Federally owned and never patented to state or private ownership.

2. Land never owned by the federal government (original states) or land patented to private of state ownership and then re-acquired by the federal government (for a post office, for example).

In the first instance, the boundary work falls under federal jurisdiction. In the second, state laws and state courts control boundary surveys.

"All state laws that are in conflict with the Federal statutes and land department principles concerning methods of survey have been declared void in so far as the boundaries of public lands are concerned.

The survey of acquired or re-acquired lands is governed by the state laws in which the land is physically located."

B.L.M. Casebook "Public Land Surveying" 2001

everyone DOES REALIZE . . .

That the question has nothing to do with boundaries . . . right?

So, maybe the question should be about doing a topographic "survey", somewhere within the confines of federal property?

everyone DOES REALIZE . . .

If you have a contract to do surveys for a federal agency, and you perform a survey in a state where you are not licensed, and the state comes after you, you will be on your own. The Feds will not provide defense. All the federal contracts that cross my desk have the requirement that the contractor acquire any license necessary to perform the work. For topo work, it will vary by state. Arkansas requires a license, if you certify your work. I would never put my Arkansas Seal on a job in another state.

Being from Florida means that you have to have professional liability insurance there.

Before taking on a job in a state where you are an unlicensed non-professional you should make sure that you also have liability coverage where you are planning to work.

My old boss was only licensed in Florida, but he once did the construction and topo survey, and maybe an internal land division (not sure) on a military base in Georgia for a fast food restaurant. He was asked to do it by the builder, and when he said he wasn't sure it was allowed, the base commander called him personally and talked him into doing the work, basically saying it was "his base", under federal jurisdictions, and they did not care about state licenses. I found the drawing one day and asked him about it... he signed it as a florida surveyor. So, that's my story ... Still not sure if what he did was really legal ... He just never got called out on it .

John,

If what you say is true, cite the authority for these agencies?

Keith

> He just never got called out on it.

Pseudo,
I'm being facetious...or maybe only sarcastic...

[sarcasm]It's a good thing yer boss didn't work in Arkansas and copyright his work...he would have been called out for sure...[/sarcasm]

DDSM;-)