As I have posted here in the past, I love my job and this profession but am not putting my signature on the finished product. I do however aim to learn as much as possible and continue to further myself through all routes possible. Our outfit has recently come across a rural piece of property in eastern central Florida, comprising of approximately 30 acres or so. There are published state plane coordinates for the section corners referenced on the platted area we are surveying. In the past parcels like this, although platted, rarely correlate to the plat. The plat we are working with in this instance is from 1928. The section corners are "Railroad spike under asphalt of roadway +/- 100' north of Angle road and +/- 100' south of the centerline of Belcher canal." Of the published co-ords visited, there were 3 box cuts in the road, of varying distances apart and none of which had a magnetic reading. Difficult to access due to traffic as well. No railroad spike was found. All of the seemingly corners were found, however they did not measure the "plat" distances and the R/W of the two roads referenced on the plat were rather ambiguous. A good reference and possible source of error could be tied to the other thread on here https://surveyorconnect.com/community/threads/170-year-encroachment.330051/ regarding the R/W not being recorded correctly. The discrepancies found include about +/- 14' east and west, and +/- 32' north and south. The found control agrees with fence lines and established ditches, however the plat describes specific distances. The land between the discrepancies include mowed and maintained tractor trails, as well as gates between parcels for cattle and the like. Personally, it seems a little like the case of Rivers vs. Lozeau where occupation was overruled by section breakdown. All of this alludes to the subject of this thread, surveying without benefit of title. Upon setting out to survey by your crew, or personally, are you typically privy to the title of the subject property? Is the title something a surveyor should always have the "benefit" of prior to making a legal decision of a boundary? Or are your surveys done strictly by legal description alone? Personally, I do not see how you could accurately describe a boundary and easements included without the title and a survey performed "without" benefit of title" would exclude various legal elements that could possibly be of great significance. Also, in your opinion does including "survey performed without benefit of title" exclude a surveyor from liability of an inaccurate drawing?
Many of my proudest moments were surveying the most difficult properties.
Landowners have come to me after another surveyor said it could not be done.
My suggestion is to reach down deep and make this one of your proud moments. You may have to do lots of research. You may have to ask one of your Title Company friends to prepare you a PTR. You may have to really work hard to get your client to understand and to pay for getting this done, but at the end the client will have something that will stand up. That is what I am asking you to doÛ?. to prepare the client a survey that will stand up!!!
You did not mention adjoiners, but you may have to survey part of theirs to make your decisions that will stand up. Oh and by the way, you will be proud to sign the survey.
Please excuse the minor hijack. So, are you about ready to move back to Colorado, Jim?
Oh, and I agree with your post. The most important part of the work for me is educating the land owner on why my services are so valuable to them.
A proper boundary surveyor must learn to be a more effective abstractor than 99 percent of the people working in the title industry on a daily basis. It's what we must do.
Had a call from a potential client yesterday. She owns a property that was once two properties. The descriptions were blended together at some point in the distant past. On this so-called single property are two commercial buildings with a single dividing wall. The first building erected is a two-story building. The second building erected is a single story and was constructed such that the existing two-story wall of the first building is required to support one side of it. She wants to sell one of the buildings. Everyone she had contacted prior to me told her she couldn't do it because of the current blended description. Apparently no one has researched back far enough to discover the original two descriptions. In her city, all she needs is to find the old description for the appropriate building and use that for her transaction. I would have that determined within 15 minutes of entering the courthouse, and that allows eight minutes of shooting the breeze with the county employees before I cracked open the books. You see, I have learned over time how the downtown buildings were handled in that city. A typical old brick/stone commercial building would be built on every inch of say Lot 8. Then the owner of the adjacent lot would build their commercial building in such a way as to use an existing wall of the first building as a support for their building. They would then purchase half the width of the wall from the owner of the first building. Nine inches was a typical halfwall width. So, the first building owner would end up owning Lot 8 less the east nine inches thereof. The second building owner would end up owning Lot 9 plus the east nine inches of Lot 8. In the case of the potential client, the current description would say she owns Lots 8 & 9 simply because she owns both buildings and someone long ago decided to blend the two descriptions into a single description.
I have come to the realization that unless you have a real opinion of title that is signed and certified to you and your client by a genuine attorney, you really aren't really working with reliable title information.
Title insurance commitments are not real title reports, they are just an insurance policy produced by companies who only do as much title research as their actuarial analysis says they need to remain profitable.
So it seems that having a copy of the title to the property does not necessarily answer all the questions. I had a hunch that maybe the fences and ditches would have been mentioned in an easement of some kind agreed upon in the title which would explain the missed distances from the legal. From what I've read here though it seems that you can't trust just any old title and the description and boundary evidence should hold.
Brian McEachern, post: 418762, member: 9299 wrote: So it seems that having a copy of the title to the property does not necessarily answer all the questions. I had a hunch that maybe the fences and ditches would have been mentioned in an easement of some kind agreed upon in the title which would explain the missed distances from the legal. From what I've read here though it seems that you can't trust just any old title and the description and boundary evidence should hold.
We don't guarantee title, so I don't think the note matters much from a liability standpoint, but it's good information to include on the map. You are still required to perform the same or more records research as other surveyors in your area would perform in the same or similar circumstances. I'm rarely provided an abstract of title, never an attorneys opinion of title, and only a title insurance commitment if performing an ALTA. Never been provided sufficient information in any case; always go further than anything provided. But I'll take anything I can get. It's all evidence, and the one with the most evidence usually wins. As bow tie mentions, title commitments are a bit different than the old fashioned opinion of title that title insurance replaced. The title commitment doesn't necessarily decide a title issue, it only identifies things that might be in question in order to exclude them from coverage. The survey exception will only be removed if the survey doesn't turn up problems. Some possible problems uncovered by the survey might be covered and some not. If I recall, you don't need to worry about Rivers case unless an adjoiner is government lands that have never been privately held.
A possible route:
Get all adjoiners deeds.
Survey all bona fide adjoiners.
Draw a plat of whats left. Write a desc of it.
Have client do quiet title action.
Charge them like this:
Survey jones to north, $ 2400.
Survey French to east, $ 3650
Survey xyz corparate bdy, to nw $ 16,150 (many corners were destroyed, and or disturbed)
Survey hwy 10 rw to south, re establish r/w. 2950
Prepare final plat, and desc. $4250 ready for quiet title action:
Meeting with atty.
1 day in court, to explain project to judge.
(may vary, if you get exceptionally stupid atty) may take 3-5days...
You get the point.
when there are problems, do your own research. No one knows what surveyors know. No one has better professional training to solve problems than surveyors - no one.
I do all my own research, and pick up deeds for all adjoining properties for every survey. Researching and surveying at least a portion of the adjoiner is necessary for all surveys. Even in subdivisions we must be careful not to assume that our clients deed does not conflict with the adjoiner's deed.
I did a survey in a mountain subdivision where the adjoiner had sold 10 feet to my client, when I picked up his deed it still was all of the lot. There was no requirement by the county at the time of sale to correct his deed after the sale. I have seen this same issue on portions of sections, where the original owner still has the deed for the SE 1/4 but now owns only a portion of that.
There are gaps, overlaps and just plain title mistakes that can get past you if you don't do the research and the extra surveying on adjoiner's.
Today's visit to the Title Company was very interesting.
They had put the wrong name on my fee check and did not notice the information included in the note on every invoice I send out that states: "Please make any check or money order payable to "A Harris" (for example purposes only)
They told me that most of my clients have been complaining that I require a copy of the Title Commitment of the property I am surveying for them to be able to receive Title Insurance
.
Farther conversation led to the fact that I am about the only local surveyor that asks for them.
My answer was that without the Title Commitment I would have to take time to research to the beginning of time to find any possible encumbrances affecting the property to be able to correctly make reference and show them on my surveys.
There answer surprised me greatly: "The other surveyors do not give references to all that stuff".
I kinda said: "I reckon that I'm the only surveyor doing their job".
I've been putting all that information on surveys since 1971 when I began drafting at night during my college years and feel that without that being on surveys, they are not up to BOR regulations.
A Harris, post: 427570, member: 81 wrote: Today's visit to the Title Company was very interesting.
They had put the wrong name on my fee check and did not notice the information included in the note on every invoice I send out that states: "Please make any check or money order payable to "A Harris" (for example purposes only)They told me that most of my clients have been complaining that I require a copy of the Title Commitment of the property I am surveying for them to be able to receive Title Insurance
.
Farther conversation led to the fact that I am about the only local surveyor that asks for them.My answer was that without the Title Commitment I would have to take time to research to the beginning of time to find any possible encumbrances affecting the property to be able to correctly make reference and show them on my surveys.
There answer surprised me greatly: "The other surveyors do not give references to all that stuff".
I kinda said: "I reckon that I'm the only surveyor doing their job".
I've been putting all that information on surveys since 1971 when I began drafting at night during my college years and feel that without that being on surveys, they are not up to BOR regulations.
Out of curiosity. Can you share your certification you put on your plat? At first glance it sounds like you are putting more effort and too much liability and certifying to more than needed if the title companies aren't balking at the products of the other surveyors. Not trying to be negative but trying to learn a different way
What you certify to does not change what is or is not required.
The wording of a surveyor's certification does not change their liability.
The surveyor's signature and embossed seal is all that the BOR requires of the surveyor.
All the other words and form certifications come from other sources.
Our BOR spells out the necessary information in the General Rules of Procedure and Practices å¤663.19 (f).
When performing a survey outside of a closing administered by a title company do you perform a title search for the subject tract from the beginning of time, what about the adjoiners, and the adjoiners, adjoining tracts?
Duane Frymire, post: 418763, member: 110 wrote: We don't guarantee title, so I don't think the note matters much from a liability standpoint, but it's good information to include on the map.
I'm not sure what kind of question this will end up being; but if you could trace the parcel back to a Warranty Deed, and could retrace the same on the ground, would that necessarily put the question of title liability away ?? Not that the surveyor is liable to guarantee title.
Maybe the better question would be, "Why would anyone do less than what is required?".
A Harris, post: 427570, member: 81 wrote: Today's visit to the Title Company was very interesting.
They had put the wrong name on my fee check and did not notice the information included in the note on every invoice I send out that states: "Please make any check or money order payable to "A Harris" (for example purposes only)They told me that most of my clients have been complaining that I require a copy of the Title Commitment of the property I am surveying for them to be able to receive Title Insurance
.
Farther conversation led to the fact that I am about the only local surveyor that asks for them.My answer was that without the Title Commitment I would have to take time to research to the beginning of time to find any possible encumbrances affecting the property to be able to correctly make reference and show them on my surveys.
There answer surprised me greatly: "The other surveyors do not give references to all that stuff".
I kinda said: "I reckon that I'm the only surveyor doing their job".
I've been putting all that information on surveys since 1971 when I began drafting at night during my college years and feel that without that being on surveys, they are not up to BOR regulations.
Having been to parts of Northeast Texas, what you say is hardly surprising. If I were a national title insurance underwriter, there are probably some Texas counties I would redline based upon local practices and I'm not saying which they would be.
TXSurveyor, post: 427576, member: 6719 wrote: When performing a survey outside of a closing administered by a title company do you perform a title search for the subject tract from the beginning of time, what about the adjoiners, and the adjoiners, adjoining tracts?
I'm frankly surprised that any Texas licensee would wonder about that point considering that Rule 663.16 of the Professional and Technical standards promulgated by the TBPLS specifically provides as follows:
"When delineating a boundary line as an integral portion of a survey, the land surveyor shall:
(1) Respect junior/senior rights for boundary retracement;
(2) Follow the footsteps of the original land surveyor;
(3) Follow the documented records of the land title affecting the boundaries being surveyed;
(A) Rely on the appropriate deeds and/or other documents including those for adjoining parcels for the location of the boundaries of the subject parcel(s).
(B) A land surveyor assuming the responsibility of performing a land survey also assumes the responsibility for such research of adequate thoroughness to support the determination of the location of the boundaries of the land being surveyed. The land surveyor may rely on record data related to the determination of boundaries furnished for the registrants' use by a qualified provider, provided the registrant reasonably believes such data to be sufficient and notes, references, or credits the documentation by which it is furnished.
(C) All boundaries shall be connected to identifiable physical monuments related to corners of record dignity. In the absence of such monumentation the land surveyor's opinion of the boundary location shall be supported by other appropriate physical evidence, which shall be explained in a land surveyor's sketch or written report.
(4) Follow the intent of the boundary location as evidenced by the record;
(5) Respect the proper application of the rules of dignity (priority) of calls, and applicable statutory and case law of Texas."
You need to know far more than a title report will give you primarily because the report is for the alleged description you are working with. You absolutely need to understand the adjoiners information just as much as that of the tract you are surveying. Hence, do not rely on a title report. Also, it may be very different where you work, but around here lawyers bailed out of the old title opinion business a few decades ago. Finding a lawyer who really (REALLY) knows anything about real estate is tough and even tougher if you want one under 65 years old.
Brian McEachern, post: 418746, member: 9299 wrote: ....Personally, I do not see how you could accurately describe a boundary and easements included without the title and a survey performed "without" benefit of title" would exclude various legal elements that could possibly be of great significance. Also, in your opinion does including "survey performed without benefit of title" exclude a surveyor from liability of an inaccurate drawing?
A boundary location is a summation of fact determined by a preponderance of evidence. The main and primary piece of evidence is a deed or conveyance with the boundary described thereon. Now what those boundaries indicate and what estates that have (or have not) rights within, across or adjacent to those boundaries are a matter of title, or law if you will. But to answer a simple question with a simple answer: An existing boundary can be properly located and surveyed without title opinion. Whether or not a surveyor can be held harmless from liability due to an inaccurate drawing because of lack of discovery or research is a different horse altogether.
Location of a boundary recorded in a document is an evidentiary determination based on facts. That recordation may be ambiguous or incomplete and may require ardent research of the available records. I know what the ALTA standards say but I would hope one doesn't think that a title opinion is a silver bullet to relieve a surveyor of researching the creation, chronology and life story of a property. Both the document and research used to determine the boundary should be reflected on the survey.
If the survey was performed without the benefit of a title opinion it should be stated so on the survey; along with a notification that although occupational use and visible evidence of use by others (if any exist) is shown, other documents or instruments commonly collected in title work affecting the property (not the boundary) may exist; recorded, unrecorded or even prescriptive. But to say a boundary survey cannot be performed without a title opinion is misleading at best.
