Allright, here is a question for the PLSS experts out there.
The situation:
We have been asked to create a 2 acre parcel around a house, which falls roughly in the middle of Section 1, West of a Meridian, and six miles North of the Parallel, and about a mile South of an indian reservation which uses a variation of the typical PLSS breakdown (3 mile system). No part of the 2 acre parcel is anywhere near the outside lines of the Section. The current parcel is the entire section.
This area is low class rangeland, mixed in with some farming, and has never been developed or divided from patent.
In researching the Range line, I have found that no point on the Rangeline has even been revisited. In my research, I actually found a request from a county surveyor to government agencies asking if they had any controlling evidence anywhere near this area, and the response was 'No'.
From the original GLO notes (late 1880's), the surveyor set charred wood stakes as corners, (WHY!!??? there are stones everywhere out here!!!!), and the likelihood is there is no evidence remaining.
What would you do in this case?
What we did was bring in the head of the County survey department (We do not have an official County Surveyor), and explain the situation to him. He agrees with us and together we will approach the planning department and request that the division be allowed without locating the Easternmost section corners. We will tie some corners off to the West.
1880ish charred posts???
Unless there is a GOOD reason for "all evidence" to be gone, then it probably AIN'T. The real trick is FINDING it (always is). It might (and probably isn't) MUCH, and getting a good place to start is paramount.
Were are you at and what kind of vegetation is in the area?
Loyal
1880ish charred posts???
Land is rolling hills with sagebrush, and native grasses, with some farming. The area is near Wandling Rd, Mabton, WA
In a perfect word (and with an unlimited budget), I would locate all the hilltops and dry creek crossings referenced in the GLO notes, over the six miles and use that to narrow down the search area for the wood stake corners.
In all my searches, I have never found original wood posts, nor found any plats referencing original found wood posts. At best we have found unrecorded Stones or cairns at the described positions where the posts were set.
1880ish charred posts???
Cattle grazing is generally the big issue in Sage Brush/grass areas (and fires don't help much either, except for making the mounds & pits easier to spot).
I've found HUNDREDS of Wood Post Mineral Survey Monuments (Corners), but only a few PLSS corners that were still wood (and most of those were of later vintage than 1880).
Ya gotta get real close to get started, but good passing calls, and maybe some mounds/pits will get you in the zip code.
Good luck, you'll be needing it.
Loyal
BTW...I found an original wood post ¼ Corner (1890ish) out in Buffalo Valley some years back, well set & standing tall (about 24 inches), and you could even see some scribing on it. NOW THAT was a happy dance!
If you are sure your parcel is in the section (never subdivided) I don't know why you would need to find the section corners. At least one corner as a tie may be required by statute. So from there I'd just mark the corners of the breakout parcel with some good markers, write a metes and bound description with calls to the markers set and described and tie it out to a corner with a good corner record on file and be done with it. I would avoid any reference to any aliquot line and not use any form of a proportioned line in the description. Just a good solid metes and bounds description tied out to a record corner.
In the middle of Section 1 around an existing house? Why are the section lines an issue? Set pins around the house, write the description and you are done. Don't see why you need to retract township lines for that. You say they own the entire section, you should be good to go. Unless you have a reason to believe the sections are over a half a mile from where everyone thinks they are.
I think you may need to work with Kent for a week or two before you tire of looking for evidence.
they may own the entire section but it is probably comprised of several aliquot parts acquired after patent. the subd. regs in WA may require showing remainders for any part under 160/80/40 what have you.....
In Yakima county, short plating requires that all corners of all parcels are set. The resultant parcels would be a two acre parcel and the rest of the section. Therefore, typically the section corners would need to be located or set.
As we are a private survey firm, endless searches for evidence are typically not done. It is the case of clients in these areas not interested in a week of survey costs to create a parcel around their trailer. In this case, we met with the landowner and the head of the county survey department and explained the case. If the county planning department is on board, we will do it as described, but if not, the project would be too cost prohibitive to proceed.
Better to lose a few hours in meetings and discussion, rather than a few days in evidence search.
Now I see, you aren't having a problem surveying the 2 acres, it's the 638 acres that's the issue. We have similar regulations here, the large survey is generally waived by the county to make it possible to do the small one economically. These regulations are often written without thinking the implications through. Imagine spending 20-30 thousand (easily-could be more in some townships I've seen) just to stake a 2 acre parcel.:-(
You are right on track continue forward:-)
And the endless tug of war continues...
The two competing issues are obvious. Here there is a third. You are required to tie your survey to 2 Public Land Corners...
Part of me recognizes the practical side of getting a project done without beating the owner with overbearing regulation. That is part of what brought me to the northwest. Another part of me longs to see the fabric of Title recovered and perpetuated. I came from a PLSS state where most stones were tossed in the creek or hammered to shards. Those old surveyors didn't want the inconvenience of dealing with original evidence. Our old farm shrank by feet every time an adjoiner developed. What started as 400 an acre nominal farm land ended up premium estate lots topping 200k an acre.
This is a prime example of a potential joint venture between a County Surveyor, Professional Society and private Surveyors. A half dozen volunteers working a few weekends might just recover evidence to preserve the original location of the Meridian. The alternative is likely a private surveyor proportioning past evidence he is not getting paid to find at some later date...
what would I do?
If I were hired to do a boundary survey, then I would provide a proper boundary survey. Sometimes a proper boundary survey is very difficult to do. The situation is only made worst by kicking the can down the road. If the evidentiary circumstances are difficult today, then do you suppose that circumstance will magically get better 10 years from now.
I would suggest working to develop a survey plan rather than running all over the countryside locating what may be latter deemed as useless data. When physical evidence is hard to find, then one has to spend more time and effort collecting written evidence. You have to get all the notes all the plats, are there completion surveys? examination surveys? may be you have to look into the national archives....I would be sure to talk to the adjoining land owners. Do they know of any surveys they have had done? How are the old time surveyors in your area, do they have private un recorded records? Be careful, if you finally have to rely upon Topo call. Generally speaking, topo calls need to be used in combination with other evidence...
The owners need to know that if they try to cut corners and they do not obtain a proper survey, then they could be looking at a nightmare latter on.
what would I do?
I completely agree. Living in these young northwest states we have a chance to preserve and memorialize evidence that is long gone back east. In a case where the line in question impacts potentially hundreds of owners it's nice to spread the cost.
The records here are fairly complete and well centralized. I can usually get everything from fist survey through patent in about 20 minutes. Knocking on doors and interviewing owners is something we don't see enough of...
what would I do?
If I were hired to do a boundary survey, then I would provide a proper boundary survey
Of course he isn't being hired to survey the 638 acres. The regulations are demanding that, and they aren't writting a check. :'(
what would I do?
The question asked was what would you do? I stand by my answer as representing BEST PRACTICES. I understood the question to be about subdividing a small portion of land surrounded by a much larger tract of land. I have no idea how one is going to know where the smaller parcel is inside the much larger without conducting a proper survey of the exterior of the parent parcel. Without actually doing the survey myself( that means a survey of all relevant written and physical evidence), I have no idea what is requited to execute a proper survey in this case. It could be that a complete survey of more than 638 acres is necessary to meet the goal of providing a proper survey or it could be far less. The fact of the matter is that Boundary Surveying is an evidence based process. In some jurisdictions, a record data parcel will do the trick, all one needs is two monuments of record....
what would I do?
Great Post Dane.
It is good to see young surveyors that know what is right versus what is "economical". The statement: "No part of the 2 acre parcel is anywhere near the outside lines of the Section." is interesting. You cannot find the section corners but feel confident in the statement?
If we continue to sacrifice our ethics, we will continue to push the idea that Surveying services are a "commodity".
I suggest having that difficult conversation with the client.
what would I do?
If there is a small tract being taken out of a large ranch, I'm going to tell the owner I have to survey the whole ranch? Been doing this a long time, never did that before.:-(
Where would you stop?
what would I do?
"...Where would you stop?..."
You don't have to survey the entire parent tract. But, You had better at least survey enough to assure your taking is IN THE PARENT TRACT.
what would I do?
Exactly;-) !!!!
Which may also to expensive for what the two acres is worth.
And the small tract will need access.
what would I do?
So cut corners?
