I get into a conversation with an out-of-state surveying company who has work with some tract builders in my area. For the sake of this conversation I will not be naming names or states, we left things amicable and I want it to stay that way.
They need a field crew as the PLS, or crew or whatever they had here had to move or something. I tell them that I am solo, fully equipped and low on work, but we have to work out some issues as to responsible charge and the like with the BOR. It seemed to be a bit of a surprise that I would take this seriously enough to contact the BOR counsel, a nice guy who is always glad to have a chat. He guides me to some articles and I advise the out-of-towers to call him and get his take on their side of this setup. They do, to their credit, and we set a meeting here in town to get down to it.
Then I get an email detailing how they see this going down. I will be doing strictly field work. No calcs or mapping and based on their control (I know I would have to check that at the very least) which is tied into the boundary of the subdivisions.
Per the email:
House stake outs ($150), Pin Footings ($150), Foundation surveys ($125-$200), Setting property pins $(150), and Final surveys ($225). We start by preparing a Site Plan and then progress from a House Stake, to Pinning Footings, and then on to a Foundation survey, which then culminates with a Final survey. You would be paid 27% of any task that you do, so you actually visit the same lot several times throughout the construction cycle. Now, to be clear, I do not intend to name anyone a lowballer here, or on any other public forum. They negotiated their price, probably based on some volume economics. So be it. Not my concern.
But.
Could you even consider this?
My pay as per the terms in the email:
1)Stake house $40.50
2)Pin $40.50
3)Foundation survey (high number) $54.00
4)Set property irons $40.50
5)Final $60.75
6)Per lot payout $236.50 net somewhere around $150.00, maybe.
I thought there was a typo.
Tract homes are not quite production work for those out in the field. Knowing how tract building works, I would be whipsawed from one end of the County to the other as different tasks on various lots come up for attention. These are expected to be done on short notice and turned in same-day or next morning at the latest. All on my gas, materials and overhead mind you, and let's not forget a 3% holdback for workers comp. Taxes alone are nearly half. The cost to them for the field work is nil, except what they pay me. I really didn’t even see how they could pay a staff crew at that rate. I had to decline the offer unless they could turn the numbers upside-down, and then "maybe".
We mutually agreed that our meeting was no longer necessary.
I will not call these folks out as anything other than some nice folks to talk to. They understood my position, they were willing to address my BOR concerns, and we left things friendly.
But DANG.
That's pretty bad.
As per a classic Australian film, "Tell him he's dreaming."
The only way this might work is if your contract includes a daily minimum, charged against whichever builder calls for your services that day. I understand that other subs usually work on a similar basis - $X price per house for a plumbing rough-in or to install the flooring, but you can be sure that they won't show up on site unless there is enough work to make it worthwhile.
We have been working on a few projects recently which are very close to the office. One project manager had the bad habit of calling first thing in the morning for layout of a few points. Less than an hour of work, but it screws the schedule for the day. When the monthly invoice with the four hour minimum callout rates got to the head office the calls abruptly stopped.
"They need a field crew as the PLS, or crew or whatever they had here had to move or something."
They probably starved to death - I wouldn't think you could even afford to fill out an invoice for those amounts.
I can certainly understand your pricing concerns and commend you on your contract negotiations; but why would you be so concerned about contacting the BOR? I can't imagine a BOR that would be concerned over individual contract negotiations between professionals. It's not like they have any authority over contracting. If they did, they'd likely be crossing the line to dabble in restraint of trade issues. Two professionals should be able to properly contract for certain areas of responsibility in a project. They've been doing it for years between architects, engineers, surveyors, contractors and subcontractors. Why would a contract between two surveyors be any different?
JBS
I'm thinking its because the firm doesn't have an in-state surveyor in their employ. JB will be the one hung out to dry if something goes wrong.
Sooooo, hung out to dry are we?
Yup, if you get hired by an out of state company and you have the stamp and something goes wrong, the lawyers will find the path of responsibility to fall upon the licensed individual.
You could take the job provided they cover your E&O, then just do a real bad job... then after the work is done, change your name and drink yourself into forgetting it ever happened. Much like a prostitute or an upper level corporate stooge.
> I can certainly understand your pricing concerns and commend you on your contract negotiations; but why would you be so concerned about contacting the BOR? I can't imagine a BOR that would be concerned over individual contract negotiations between professionals. It's not like they have any authority over contracting. If they did, they'd likely be crossing the line to dabble in restraint of trade issues. Two professionals should be able to properly contract for certain areas of responsibility in a project. They've been doing it for years between architects, engineers, surveyors, contractors and subcontractors. Why would a contract between two surveyors be any different?
>
> JBS
There are huge issues for the BOR regarding sub-contracting PLS' as crews-for hire.
Responsible charge (RC) probably being the biggie. Imagine I go to stake 5 houses that are ready to go...ready NOW. If I don't take the time to check the control they gave me due the rush, who takes the hit when it turns out the control is jacked up somehow? A PLS, but which one? Can one PLS in a subcontract situation have RC over another? Maybe, you just have be be VERY careful and a simple “I’ll do this for $x" contract won’t cut it. My judgement and my license would be put in the crosshairs. Setting irons based on a boundary I have never researched? “I was just handed a bunch of coords from another PLS” is what you would try to tell the BOR. It wouldn’t wash. If they are turning out sub-standard final plats, do I have any skin in that end of the game?
It’s the fact that the licenses clash. I can’t do anything without meeting all the BOR standards on everything.
In this case these guys will be better off sub-contacting to an unlicensed crew-for-hire. The path to the PLS with RC is then a bright red line.
What was the boards view with them offering surveying in this state without being licensed? I would think they need to hire an LS in NC or they cant even offer to do this work.
They have an NCPLS on staff at the home office. There was a question as to the corporate entity being registered with the BOR. We didn't get that far however.
> There are huge issues for the BOR regarding sub-contracting PLS' as crews-for hire.
> Responsible charge (RC) probably being the biggie.
I clearly understand that the BOR has a stake in "crews-for-hire," and they've addressed the issue by passing administrative rules which govern the issue. That's why we have "Responsible Charge" requirements. That, alone, sets the stage. If the licensee fails to provide RC, it matters little whether the crew is under his employment, sub-contracted, or pulled off the street. It's the licensee that is in violation, not the crew. Restraint of trade happens when the BOR attempts to step in and attempts to govern who you can hire and under what conditions their employment is undertaken. That's completely outside their authority.
>Imagine I go to stake 5 houses that are ready to go...ready NOW. If I don't take the time to check the control they gave me due the rush, who takes the hit when it turns out the control is jacked up somehow? A PLS, but which one? Can one PLS in a subcontract situation have RC over another? Maybe, you just have be be VERY careful and a simple “I’ll do this for $x" contract won’t cut it. My judgement and my license would be put in the crosshairs. Setting irons based on a boundary I have never researched? “I was just handed a bunch of coords from another PLS” is what you would try to tell the BOR. It wouldn’t wash. If they are turning out sub-standard final plats, do I have any skin in that end of the game?
We can imagine all we want to about the failure of the licensee to provide RC or to even go so far as to personally violate the standards of practice. Every engagement of a licensee puts you "in the crosshairs," but only when you breach your duty as a professional. There are some breaches that will put you under the scrutiny of the BOR; there are some breaches which put you under the scrutiny of the civil courts. There's a bright line difference between the two which should never be crossed (two independent branches of government).
Contracting issues and professional negligence issues should be left to the civil courts; licensing issues should be overseen by the BOR.
> It’s the fact that the licenses clash. I can’t do anything without meeting all the BOR standards on everything.
Yes. A surveyor subcontracting another surveyor raises the issue of RC and the division of responsibilities must be well negotiated and spelled out. That's why I commended you for raising the issues. The licensee who is in RC is the one the BOR will hold to meeting their standards, not the employee or subcontractor.
A well negotiated and well constructed contract will deal with the issues at hand and will be in complete satisfaction of BOR rules concerning RC. There is no need to involve the BOR in the contracting process. Sure, you could call a fellow surveyor (who happens to be on the Board) to gain some insight into contracting methods, but I'd recommend a good contract attorney instead.
> In this case these guys will be better off sub-contacting to an unlicensed crew-for-hire. The path to the PLS with RC is then a bright red line.
Any surveyor should look at the contract proposal and determine if they're willing to take the risks involved (all jobs have risks). A smart surveyor, such as yourself, knows when the risks vs benefit ratio is out of whack and decides to walk. My point is merely that a contract between licensed professionals can be worked out and can clearly express the RC issues. The contract can be worked out, but may not always be worked out to a level of mutual satisfaction.
JBS
I remember seeing a similar business venture some time ago.
Made me think, what a brazen !#&%*@.
Asking that someone else do all the labor for gas money and travel expenses and make no real income.
Part of being a licensed individual is that you are responsible for your work, even if you are being instructed by another. Even moreso is the responsibility of sound judgement on the business level as well as the surveying quality. With the license comes the responsibility to stop and say, this is wrong and I don't agree with this. It does not benefit me and I am taking on all the liability and not getting compensated for that.
I would laugh in their face.
😉
GREAT points JB. And I agree, it can certainly be worked out, but the issue had to be brought to their attention. They were rarin' to go and I had to get on the reins a little. Like I said, they were very good about addressing my concerns. Things came apart when it came to me staking a lot for an $18+- profit.
What service is being sold?
What they are buying is the service of someone who is licensed and capable of being in responsible charge of the project. This is the standard that the state will expect you to meet.What is being attempted,if I understand you correctly, is to bargain for the price of responsible charge as if were some many pallets of sheet rock and not a professional service.
If you assess what the budget requirements actually are for you to provide the service in a fashion that is neither incompetent nor negligent, then you probably won't get the job.
They do not need a surveyor to slam stakes in the ground. Anyone can do that job.
They need to hire a professional to shoulder the liability of the requested service.
Professional services rendered in a truly professional manner ALWAYS COSTS MORE
I can see why you didnt get that far. There stakeout price of $150 is laughable with gas prices being where they are.
The board does have some say in contract law in NC. Only entities licensed by the state can offer surveying services here. Even if you have a licensed employee, you may not meet the requirements and thus you cant offer these services. It would be illegal for you to subcontract the work because you are not able to offer the service in the first place. Likewise your subcontractor has to meet all the rules too. Your contract would be deemed invalid if you are not properly licensed as you can not enter into a contract to do an illegal thing.
Holly Smoke
When I began reading the original post I presumed the $ amounts were on an hourly basis for a field crew. When I realized the prices were for the individual finished survey products, my thoughts were more along the lines of OMG, WOW, HOLY S___. I agree with all the foregoing posts and would add that maybe North Carolina surveyors need to raise their rates. If the relative cost of services is low enough for the out of town company to assume someone would take them up on their offer, I say again WOW, etc.
Here in California those prices wouldn’t cover the cost of driving to the site. California does have the highest cost of living in the lower 48 and our cost of services reflects how expensive it is to live and work here. But, is the cost of living and the cost of professional services in NC that much lower? The unfortunate thing is that they will find someone to take them up on their low ball offer. Good luck with that one.
Mike Ford
Santa Rosa, CA
JB-
These persons have an excellent ideas of their worth in 1970.
Any hint of a track record in court ?
The bitter taste of poor quality lingers much longer than the sweet taste of a low price.
DGG
JB-
I forgot to ask are the "houses" 2 sheets of plywood wide by 4 long?
Value of house is ?
Ask them to tell you what the front door is worth installed !
DGG
when you get sued
Are the costs equally as low when you get sued? Are you one the hook for hundreds of thousands of dollars along with the chance to lose your license if you are sued?
Heck dive in head first if all that can be recovered is $20 a house.
