Straight forward enough when you send a set of prints out directly after completing the project, no question no problem
But when a client calls 12 years after you did a survey and wants a certified print.
What is the right thing to do?
A) Pull out the old print, copy it, sign it and back date it
B) Mail out a hard copy print unsigned and unsealed
C) Copy old print and sign & seal with today's date
D) Decline on sending any new prints
E) email a PDF that is not signed nor sealed
> Straight forward enough when you send a set of prints out directly after completing the project, no question no problem
>
> But when a client calls 12 years after you did a survey and wants a certified print.
> What is the right thing to do?
>
> A) Pull out the old print, copy it, sign it and back date it
> B) Mail out a hard copy print unsigned and unsealed
> C) Copy old print and sign & seal with today's date
> D) Decline on sending any new prints
> E) email a PDF that is not signed nor sealed
If it was the client I worked for, A, but they would have to pay for access to my records.
My opinion:
A) If it's the client for whom you prepared the survey.
B) Your choice. I would add "Courtesy Copy" somewhere on the face.
C) Under no circumstances.
D) Maybe the best option.
E) Same as "B"
Also, a reasonable fee would be in order.
> > Straight forward enough when you send a set of prints out directly after completing the project, no question no problem
> >
> > But when a client calls 12 years after you did a survey and wants a certified print.
> > What is the right thing to do?
> >
> > A) Pull out the old print, copy it, sign it and back date it
> > B) Mail out a hard copy print unsigned and unsealed
> > C) Copy old print and sign & seal with today's date
> > D) Decline on sending any new prints
> > E) email a PDF that is not signed nor sealed
>
>
> If it was the client I worked for, A, but they would have to pay for access to my records.
What if the survey was originally signed by an LS who no longer works for the firm?
Do you still sign & back date it?
I don't believe it would be appropriate to sign it in that case. You couldn't have both been in responsible charge, and by signing it you are certifying that you were.
Apparently, your not in a recording state.... Another thing- you appear to be new here so I'm not familiar with your background... But some of the options given are really.... Ummm out there... Sign and back date? I guess this is assuming you were licensed & working for the firm 12 years ago - is that assumption correct? If not, that's not really an option especially if the survey shows Setting surveyor x's mons along with your signature and seal - probably not highly regarded by your board. .... I don't see how you can send him Anything that's certified without field work to document conditions as they exist at the time of certification--- now
> ... when a client calls 12 years after you did a survey and wants a certified print.
> What is the right thing to do?
I keep pdf scans of the original signed prints. So if the client was one I was kindly disposed to I might provide a copy of that pdf. I'm in a recording state and the really important maps are public record anyway. So I might just provide a link to the County Surveyor's website.
Otherwise I'd decline to provide any copy. It was lost in a hard drive crash, and I don't keep hard copies. Luckily for him the raw data and notes were backed up separately and I could reproduce the map, for a fee. While I'm at it I should update the research and perambulate the boundary.
BTW, here in Oregon there is a 10 year limit on liability for surveys.
> Apparently, your not in a recording state.... Another thing- you appear to be new here so I'm not familiar with your background... But some of the options given are really.... Ummm out there... Sign and back date? I guess this is assuming you were licensed & working for the firm 12 years ago - is that assumption correct? If not, that's not really an option especially if the survey shows Setting surveyor x's mons along with your signature and seal - probably not highly regarded by your board. .... I don't see how you can send him Anything that's certified without field work to document conditions as they exist at the time of certification--- now
Not so much any of the above.
What do you do, when a past client from years ago asks that you send him a print?
Same client and owns the same property
Do you send him an unsigned print?
> Apparently, your not in a recording state.... Another thing- you appear to be new here so I'm not familiar with your background... But some of the options given are really.... Ummm out there... Sign and back date? I guess this is assuming you were licensed & working for the firm 12 years ago - is that assumption correct? If not, that's not really an option especially if the survey shows Setting surveyor x's mons along with your signature and seal - probably not highly regarded by your board. .... I don't see how you can send him Anything that's certified without field work to document conditions as they exist at the time of certification--- now
I wasn't endorsing or suggesting any one scenario,
I was just trying to come up with all possibilities
I'd have a frank conversation with him about his intended use for a certified copy , during which I'd try to point out why he actually current survey - if that was to no avail, I'd download and print a copy of the recorded survey from the courthouse, write "Courtesy copy" in red across the signature block. I'd send to them with a cover letter stating the survey represents conditions as the apparently existed 12 years ago and nothing shown therein had been verified by you in the interim.
>
>
> A) Pull out the old print, copy it, sign it and back date it
> B) Mail out a hard copy print unsigned and unsealed
> C) Copy old print and sign & seal with today's date
> D) Decline on sending any new prints
> E) email a PDF that is not signed nor sealed
Our rules are fairly straight forward.
When the product was final, you signed and sealed the plat at that time.
You don't do "A" because you don't have an unsigned copy in your files. Only a signed copy.
You don't do "B" because you don't have an unsigned copy in your files.
You don't do "C" because if you copy the old file it will have your previous seal and signature so no need to resign or seal. In fact NEVER do that. If your statue of limitations has expired, you may be restarting the time clock with the new seal and signature.
Unless the circumstances were very unusual, I would decline to send a copy. Find out why the client needs the map. New sale? No. He needs current data, not old data.
You don't do "E" because if the product is a final work product it should be signed and sealed. If it is not a final product it must contain one of a small number of "Preliminary" notes. Sending out a "final product" with one of the preliminary notes puts you in the short line to hot water with the board.
Larry P
> >
> >
> > A) Pull out the old print, copy it, sign it and back date it
> > B) Mail out a hard copy print unsigned and unsealed
> > C) Copy old print and sign & seal with today's date
> > D) Decline on sending any new prints
> > E) email a PDF that is not signed nor sealed
>
> Our rules are fairly straight forward.
>
> When the product was final, you signed and sealed the plat at that time.
>
> You don't do "A" because you don't have an unsigned copy in your files. Only a signed copy.
>
> You don't do "B" because you don't have an unsigned copy in your files.
>
> You don't do "C" because if you copy the old file it will have your previous seal and signature so no need to resign or seal. In fact NEVER do that. If your statue of limitations has expired, you may be restarting the time clock with the new seal and signature.
>
> Unless the circumstances were very unusual, I would decline to send a copy. Find out why the client needs the map. New sale? No. He needs current data, not old data.
>
> You don't do "E" because if the product is a final work product it should be signed and sealed. If it is not a final product it must contain one of a small number of "Preliminary" notes. Sending out a "final product" with one of the preliminary notes puts you in the short line to hot water with the board.
>
> Larry P
If I'm following you, there is only one singed original survey and all additional prints are reproductions of the original. ?
In my case I always have two extra signed plats in the file for every survey. It has been an extremely rare case when someone who was the client on that job contacts me because he cannot find the plats he received in the past. Therefore, it has been an extremely rare case where I have sent out one of the extras from the file. It is not different from the one he would have if he could simply find it and it is not different from the one available at the courthouse in his county. In no case would I sign a new one with a new date.
If anyone other than the original client calls they are SOL, if you catch my drift.
In that situation, I would make a copy of the plat, with the seal and signature from the day it was originally signed, stamp in red "FILE COPY" in several places, and let the guy have it. I would only do this for the original client, if they still owned the property.
No thanks, I'll pass on that...
Thanks for the forum to vent:
(Not in a recording state) Too many times I have lost a survey job because the realtor came up with a copy of the old survey. If/when the day comes that realtors decline (or seriously reduce) their commission if/when they make a quick sale after little effort, or when title persons give away copies of abstracts, etc., etc., etc., etc. So..., long story short, I am in a business, and I am not about to start giving away my work product to ANYONE! I do not run a copy shop. I have a valuable work product like many other professionals that run some type of business. I have never "got it" why surveyors are so timid about refusing to give away their valuable property. I got it, you want it, then pay for it. Period.
Both myself and my local competitors put copyright statements on the map, as well as additional statements such as one that says the map may not be used with an affidavit or letter of any kind for reuse...
It's just the way it is. If you feel the need to give away your most valuable property seek help. Maybe, you just want to do it as a hobby.
(ubenhavin?)
> What if the survey was originally signed by an LS who no longer works for the firm?
I tend to think of this as a business decision governed by both your ethical standards and your state laws. Toss in the value to the potential client and what additional work will NEED to be done for their specific needs. What could appear to be just a file copy could turn into a full blown topo and all the construction staking? Could go from a couple hundred to well into 5 digits. Find out by asking more questions.
Without a doubt, bill them for the time and expenses to provide them a "file copy" and I would not re-date anything, if that is what you decide to do.
This is a good post to further justify the recordation of all land surveys. As you stated, it's the other guys seal and I certainly wouldn't seal it and date it today.
$0.02
All my drawings show the date that I was last on the property.
I would make a copy or print of the original drawing, sign it and seal it with no changes.
Charge whatever you would for your time, office products and postage plus any amount necessary for any liability you feel you may be under by issuing the drawing.
Anything formerly signed by another will not be signed by me on down the road.
If I had a copy of some ancient survey, I would sell someone a copy, as is, for a nominal fee.
I was sitting in church last night when a young man came up to me and said "Hey, I thought I was going to have to come see you the other day." I was thinking that maybe I was going to get a survey job when he continued "Yeah, we bought a house and you did the survey on it years ago and I was needing to get a copy to close on - but the lady I bought it from found her old copy so I didn't have to come by."
Now if she had called and wanted a copy, what do you think it would have been for? Everyone involved in that transaction made money, except the surveyor (me). At least I didn't participate in cutting myself out of the loop. The last time I checked (which is every month), the gas company, electric company, bank and insurance agency all wanted to be paid for participating in my being in business, so I guess that we are still a "for profit" business.
Add F to your list
F) Tell them "We don't make copies of old surveys, but we can "update"* it for you."
*update meaning do a new survey
You don't have to sound hateful in doing it and you get the opportunity to explain to them why it should be resurveyed instead of just passed along. If they get mad and don't hire you, then you haven't lost anything because you weren't going to get to survey it anyway. If they hire another surveyor to do the job, then that is still a victory for the surveying community - maybe you will get a job from one of his mad clients if he refuses to just rubber stamp a copy.
It has value folks, otherwise they wouldn't want it - stop giving in away in hopes that they will shower you with money later on.
After 12 years I would want to make a trip to the survey and verify that my old survey is still valid and no body has put any new encroachments that I am unaware of. Same for new improvements. 12 years ago everything was great, but a lot can happen in 12 years and a little bit of extra work might save some $$$ in the courthouse.
>
> If I'm following you, there is only one singed original survey and all additional prints are reproductions of the original. ?
Yes. Exactly.
Larry P
