Signing & Certifying Your Surveys

completely agree with Larry. I give out sealed copies at time of service, the contract includes number of sealed copies, etc. After a month or two, I will charge for an update. Of course, title people, attorneys etc all operate on the same principle but usually are the biggest complainers about it. this is only good business. Years later? I will charge a full price survey. I received a call from a homeowner yesterday complaining that he could not find his property corners on his lot. I looked up the job and we had found/set all corners 2 years ago. Should I go to his property and reset the corners for free? He thought so. If all surveyors start acting like surveying is a business, we might actually make money. [sarcasm] Imagine that.[/sarcasm]

Can't find my corners

That's a completely different situation. I had one fellow who paid me three times to come back and find his bars for him. He had too much money.

Last week I did one of those jobs where I had done the survey about five years ago and the owner could find all but one corner. The only reason we had done the survey was that he had forty acres and a house but he could get a really sweet loan if he had ten or fewer acres. We cut out about 9.4 acres for him to mortgage. He still owned both pieces so he didn't really care where the corners were. Now he has pulled up stakes and moved to AiryZona. He is selling the remainder tract to the adjoiner and letting one of his sons live in the house for now. He might get tired of AiryZona and need to come back. The only issue now is that they need to install a cattle fence along the boundaries of the 9.4-acre tract. Took us less than a hour to show up, verify the three corners he had already found and then discover and verify the last one. I think it may have moved 0.04', but knowing them it will soon be jerked from the earth and a big ol' corner post will be planted in its place.

You're going to be held responsible for a swimming pool built in 2009 because of a document you signed in 2003?

I do not understand how a surveyor can be held liable for things that occur after the date of the survey.

Send the old print with the original date
I dont see how your liabilty would increase
unless you change the date of the survey

of course you could charge a nominal 'archive retrivial fee'

> Straight forward enough when you send a set of prints out directly after completing the project, no question no problem
>
> But when a client calls 12 years after you did a survey and wants a certified print.
> What is the right thing to do?
>
> A) Pull out the old print, copy it, sign it and back date it
> B) Mail out a hard copy print unsigned and unsealed
> C) Copy old print and sign & seal with today's date
> D) Decline on sending any new prints
> E) email a PDF that is not signed nor sealed

A. Typically never, but if I have an original signed and sealed plat, I'll copy it and stamp it with red ink "UNOFFICIAL COPY"
B. Stamped again "UNOFFICIAL COPY"
C. Never - things HAVE changed in 12 years.
D. Sometimes - depends on the client and situation. If I do send it "UNOFFICIAL COPY"
E. Clearly marked "UNOFFICIAL COPY" even with a water mark.

I'm in a recording state, so I always tell them they can get a copy at the Court House cheaper than I can dig it up and copy it.

SD.

> You're going to be held responsible for a swimming pool built in 2009 because of a document you signed in 2003?
>
> I do not understand how a surveyor can be held liable for things that occur after the date of the survey.

Tommy,

I agree with what you say. But I also know how the attorneys can twist things. Here is something I can see happening.

1. Our first and most important responsibility is to protect the public.
2. Your client came to you and asked for a copy of a survey that was 15 years old. You gave it to them.
3. Your client used that old information as a substitute for what he really needed which was current information. Harm resulted.
4. You were the professional and were supposed to protect your client from his own actions. You knew (or should have known) of the potential for harm and yet you facilitated that harm anyway. Had you refused to facilitate the use of the old information the client (and the public) would have been protected.
5. You are liable for not protecting the client from his own actions. A doctor would never operate to fix a broken arm based on an x-ray that was 10 years old and you should not have allowed the client to use your old information for a purpose not intended.

An attorney making that argument properly can probably sway quite a few jurors and or judges.

Larry P

> .... "UNOFFICIAL COPY"
>

I've never heard of an "unofficial copy". Is that wording authorized or prescribed in the board rules or state statutes of your state?

Our board has a short list of allowable notes for Preliminary work products and an even shorter list of certifications that must be on final work products. Would love a cite to the rule or statute that defines an unofficial copy.

Larry P

I direct them to the County Recorder where they can obtain a copy for $5.00.

I like that thinking, Tommy. And I would probably charge for the time required to make the copy, especially if the copy required a trip to a print shop (large format).

No thanks, I'll pass on that...

"(Not in a recording state) "

What does this mean? There is no agency that records documents? I find that difficult to comprehend...

hmmm. good point, Jeff.

so it's a profit thing...

Sorry for the confusion

I apologize for the confusion.

I am in Florida. In Florida maps of boundary surveys are not recorded. In some states maps of boundary surveys are recorded. What my comment intended to convey was that in Florida maps of boundary surveys are not recorded. Yes, Deeds are recorded. Yes, subdivision plats are recorded. Also, many other types of documents are recorded.

Thanks for allowing me to clear up this bit of confusion.

In New Jersey you must follow NJAC 13:40-8.1(c)

(c) The client of a professional engineer or land surveyor shall be entitled to complete copies of all records generated for the engineering and/or land surveying project within a reasonable period of time after forwarding a written request to the professional engineer or land surveyor and upon payment of such proportion of fees as reflect the extent of all services performed.

(d) The professional engineer or land surveyor shall be compensated for the reasonable costs of research and reproduction for copies of records released pursuant to this rule.

Very good explanation of the way things just really are, Jim.

To others, aren't we all really in this line of work to make a living? I know that is the reason I do what I do. Take the profit out and I would just as soon do something else as a hobby. So, why shouldn't everything we do (exceptions for charity reasons notwithstanding) be for profit?

(ubenhavin?)

For what it's worth, I always put a note on my survey stating "This survey represents conditions as they existed on Jan. XX, 20XX."

Explain to me the difference in someone pulling an old survey out of their cedar chest and coming to my office to get a copy of the survey because the cedar chest burned up.

The doctor example is completely ridiculous. I'm not the equivalent of the doctor because in this situation, I'm not providing a professional service. I'm providing a record of the service I provided earlier. Is the library responsible for you reading outdated information in one of its books?

> > .... "UNOFFICIAL COPY"
> >
>
>
> I've never heard of an "unofficial copy". Is that wording authorized or prescribed in the board rules or state statutes of your state?
>
> Our board has a short list of allowable notes for Preliminary work products and an even shorter list of certifications that must be on final work products. Would love a cite to the rule or statute that defines an unofficial copy.
>
>
> Larry P

6.1.4 Sealing Documents That Are Not Final. When a licensee seals surveying documents that are not final, the status of the surveying documents must be identified as preliminary. Further qualifying descriptors may be added, e.g. ” for review.”

What we stamp as UNOFFICIAL COPY is surveys performed by retired/past surveyors of the company.

Any that I am personally responsible for get what the board rule states.

SD

If your client wants a copy pf a 12 year old survey with today's date a current seal and signature, there's really only one thing you can do. You tell him that you MUST return to the site and verify that NOTHING has changed and all of your pins are still in place. Then you can do an "Update" on your survey. Remember, you are certifying that your plat reflects the conditions as of the date of the plat. All changes must be shown and, yes, it should cost him extra.

> >
> > If I'm following you, there is only one singed original survey and all additional prints are reproductions of the original. ?
>
> Yes. Exactly.
>
> Larry P

That is our way. For the most part we would provide a copy for a nominal fee, or nothing if it was a current client.

> > >
> > > If I'm following you, there is only one singed original survey and all additional prints are reproductions of the original. ?
> >
> > Yes. Exactly.
> >
> > Larry P
>
> That is our way. For the most part we would provide a copy for a nominal fee, or nothing if it was a current client.

So, if I'm understanding you, you might provide a "copy" of the old original print.

Does not the BOR require an original signature & wet stamp?