We had a fire in June, the Wood Hollow Fire, that burned over 50,000 acres (Juniper, Gamble Oak, Sagebrush, and grass). They are flying on the seed right now and I found out they are going to chain the area. For those not familiar with chaining they hook a big chain between two large bulldozers and drag it over the ground to knock down the remaining stumps and it helps cover the seed. Anyone who has ever went looking to stone corners knows that this is bad. There are lots of, shall we say pristine, corners in this area just waiting to be found and located. But there has never been the money.
I'm going to get on the phone and see what I can find out about preserving the corners. I was actually looking forward to hunting some of these corners after the fire but the chaining sort of caught me off guard. They have money for seed, airplanes and bulldozers, what about for preserving the corners. They are on the fast track to do this before winter. If they do decide to do something where would all the surveyors come from to search for the corners on 50,000 acres in a month, 2/3 of which there are no records beyond the GLO survey.
Wish me luck, getting on the phone in the morning.
All of the other groups are good at getting funding.
Land Surveyors just have almost zero public image. This is mostly self-inflicted.
It's the landowners that lose their corners. Come to think of it they lost their fences also. So maybe it's a clean slate.
I'm going to whine about it, see where is goes from there. Maybe they got it covered but I'm not that optimistic considering nobody cared (enough to provide funds) for about 150 years already.
all the mistakes of the past solved in one big math solution...
Who is the 'they' that are doing the chaining? Certainly seems unlikely to be a consortium of 500 land owners, but more likely the feds, or a state agency or a county!?
They can probably be approached. I have worked in a number of areas in the west where this practice was used. AZ, NM, CO and perhaps UT. In one area it was clear that someone had flagged all the corners and the chaining just took a wide swath around them leaving behind these nice little islands of trees for the cattle to find shelter under.
One could get the interested parties involved in a remon and preservation project, one could try to get some coordinates on corners, but that is in my opinion inferior to protecting the evidence, the monuments and the related things like bearing trees.
If the impoverished BLM in the 1960's could do it, I am surprised that the private sector, as the guardians of democracy and the rights of the individual can't do it .. through advocacy in the local community and the forces of the marketplace do it?!
- jlw
My understanding of operations where there are numerous interests in things like timber. Each owner has a duty to protect and defend their own boundaries against their neighbors. I guess if they all don't care and let some kind of eminent domain forces rip up their land and destroy all evidence of their ownership, why should you? And if they Do care it is certainly possible to do something about it.
I believe the state is paying for the work, maybe some federal money. Rocky Mountain Power seems to be responsible for the fire starting. Maybe some money is coming from them. The BLM has all their corners retraced and marked with caps. Pretty sure the BLM will be there to protect their corners. The county hasn't done much from day one. Been hacking away at a few corners per year with federal funding. I've already sent an email to the County Commissioners and Recorder/Surveyor. If the county had done what was supposed to have been done for the last 140 years we'd have these corners tied out but we don't. But there never was the money to do it.
The best hope at this point would be to leave islands about 300 feet in diameter around the GCDB coordinates. That's the only thing that could be done in the time frame going on here. Actually the burn would make it easier to find the corners but the area is to large and the clock is ticking. The planes been seeding for three days now. For all I know the dozers are already going.
I'm hoping for the best but expect the worst. Just another example of letting the PLSS die on the vine. So much of it is gone in my area so I hate to see another big chunk go down the drain. We have lots more area that needs to burn and probably will over the next twenty years or so. Maybe I'm the only one that cares about the corners. Most folks haven't spent days trying to find just one.
I am still confused. Why are you appealing to this forum for relief on this local issue.
You perhaps have a right to be 'outraged', but you also have a responsibility to do things, both as a citizen of your community and your responsibility as a professional knowledgeable in some specific areas or relevance.
So again, are all these land owners are just signing away their rights and acquiescint in this process of boundary destruction?
Not sure why this deserves my sympathy if the surveying profession is not willing to take it on.
Do expect some devine intervention from this forum?
If you want local action, arm yourself (with knowledge) and take action.
Are you really the 'only one'?
You're right, preaching to the choir is a huge waste of time.
Is there no Surveyor's Association or Society in your state?
I just read all the replies and one thought comes to me. Does your state have a statute that protects survey monuments? If so you need to get on the local news informing all the property owners that they will be able to press charges for intentional monument destruction. Who ever is responsible for this is intentionally starting a land clearing project that will violate the statute. That organization will be responsible for the total cost of all damages. County state or federal they are not above the law and the private citizens need to know the costs will be greater if the corners are destroyed.
Leon,
Pull out the big gun...quote Deuteronomy 27:17
"Cursed is the man who moves his neighbor's boundary stone." Then all the people shall say, "Amen!"
DDSM :beer:
I have spoken the the manager directing the seeding and chaining (Utah Division of Wildlife Resources). They are interested in protecting the corners. He said he'd see if they could get some funding for some land surveyor involvement. I think they had plans to mark the corners using some handheld GPS and the state GIS coordinates. I told him they weren't accurate enough and he seemed surprised when I told him they could be up to a couple hundred feet off. I also told him it had taken me years of experience to identify some corner marks properly. So we will see where it goes. I also got in touch with the BLM and got some latest and greatest GCDB coordinates that incorporate some recent data. 5 corners (three TS corners and a couple points in the middle of the line I did two years ago) along the range line that runs right up the middle of the burn scar. It improves the search quite a bit and is scheduled to update into the state GIS next year. The guy called them flat files (I got the NAD27 lat-long version for 6 townships). I also emailed the county commissioners and recorder/surveyor. I also called a good friend for his input on how we might garner some resources to do the work. Then I had to drive 2 hrs and mark some clearing lines for fencing for 4 hours in the Uinta Mountains. I left that job at dark and a 2 hr drive home. So I'm bushed.
Anything else I can think to do I'll do.
There are statutes to protect corners. Hasn't done much good over the last hundred years though. I pointed out in an email to officials that it was against the law to destroy section monuments.
I admit that the most important thing in the minds of others is to get the burned land restored. It is causing all sorts of problems including mud floods. Seems the state Division of Wildlife Resources has some money for wildlife protection, at least that is who is directing the effort as they have the resources to do this kind of stuff. I don't know at this point where the funding is coming from.
By the time some sort of decision was made by the state association (in record speed maybe a year from now), the corners would be all chained (tilled ) up. There would be more interest in who got credit and that no toes anywhere were stepped on than actually saving the corners. That's just my take from on being on one of the committees for five years.
Survey monuments are a big part of our infrastructure but nobody but surveyors know it.
In Washington State, it is taken seriously; some engineers have lost their license because they didn't take the time to learn the law.
King County has a good web page on the subject.
Doesn't Utah have anything in place like this?
Dugger
Make it an archeological problem, not Surveying and then you might get some movement.
I think it is better understood that archeologists need long periods of time to survey any given area.
Those look like good resources. We have a start in the Utah AGRC (GIS). I've already talked to them.
Some Counties are in better shape than others. My rural county is in terrible shape, no money for corner maintenance or a county surveyors office for decades. Last few years there has been some money mostly grants related to the state GIS. Using the coordinates in these files for my county will get you close on some corners and make you miss maybe 300 feet on others. If we had this done locating the corners would be easy, you could put a GPS device on the dozers that would keep them away. One way or another I'm going to get some mileage on locating and preserving and protecting survey boundary markers in my county.
Utah PLSS Website - Corner Coordinates and Records
Type "SANPETE" in the box and then return. Then zoom in with the mouse wheel until the 40 corner dots appear. The purple dots are the ones that have been done.