Tommy Young, post: 432657, member: 703 wrote: Caller: You did a survey on this tract 10 years ago and there is a problem with the description. Can I get a copy of the survey?
Me: (after looking at the file), yes we did it for Mr X. What is your relationship to him?
Caller: My family business bought it from him 4 years ago.
Me: Well, I'm not going to let loose a copy of the survey, but I don't mind sending you a copy of the small portion in dispute. We're only liable for the survey for 4 years after the date of the stamp, and I'm not going to bring myself into any problems.
So, I copied this area and sent it to her. There is no names, no certification, no company info, no date, nothing. What I gave her is little more than a cartoon. I did all this assuming that a lawyer mistyped the description I wrote.
She emails me back wanting a copy of the plat. I wrote out a nice long, polite, response that I would not be doing that.
Now she's got Mr. X calling and leaving messages wanting a copy of the plat. It turns out that when he sold her the property, he used the previous description, and not the one that I wrote. So at this point, legally, my survey does not exist. Mr. X can't find his copies, none exist outside of this building, and the 4 years has expired.
So now I've got to call Mr. X and tell him he's out of luck.
I've already made my mind up, but I was just wondering if there was anyone, anywhere, that would release a copy of this plat.
Was there a record of survey law in the state where this survey was performed?
Was it in effect at the date of the survey?
Why o why don't all states have record of survey laws requiring filing of all surveys where a corner is set or a material difference between a prior survey is found?
These laws help protect property rights and the fabric of the cadastre. It reduces the potential for survey error based gaps/overlaps. It gives you and every other surveyor reasons to accept/reject found monumentation. It protects and perpetuates your survey. It makes corner cutters think a little longer about which corners to cut since their mistakes/shoddy work will be of record. If your state doesn't have an ROS law - PROPOSE ONE - get a legislator to sponsor a bill.
Record your surveys (if the law in your jurisdiction allows it) - it's the professional thing to do. Then when someone asks - point them to the recorded survey and get working on that other job sitting on your desk.
Just sayin.
I most certainly would give a copy of the survey. If you don't record the survey or give the survey to interested parties you have created nothing of value for your work. If you only have four years of liability you have nothing to lose.
I also wouldn't start a conversation with a potential client by pointing out that four years after you perform a survey you have no more responsibility.
I would offer a fee to update your survey. If Mr. X no longer has an interest in the property then why 10 years later should we feel obligated to provide copies of an out of date survey to him. To me any obligation to a former client on a particular parcel would cease upon transfer of title. If Mr. X still owned the property, I would certainly provide a copy for a nominal fee. But not to a new owner for an issue that arises 10 years later. A new/updated survey for the new owner is what I would offer.
In Virginia we are not a recording/filing state. By law the all plat, notes, computations, research, and so forth belong to the client. We are technically supposed to give all originals of all of the above to the client, and then keep copies for ourselves. That said, I don't know a single surveyor that does this. We keep all originals and give copies of only the plat to the client, and then only give out copies of notes and such by specific request. What I'm getting at here, is in Virginia, you legally can only give a copy to the original client that paid for the survey 10 years ago. I have given out copies, when i knew the survey was recorded previously obviously. Not sure if that helps as every state and situation is different, but because of all this I handle these things like Ron Lang says above.
Chris Duncan, post: 432855, member: 7540 wrote: In Virginia we are not a recording/filing state. By law the all plat, notes, computations, research, and so forth belong to the client. We are technically supposed to give all originals of all of the above to the client, and then keep copies for ourselves. That said, I don't know a single surveyor that does this. We keep all originals and give copies of only the plat to the client, and then only give out copies of notes and such by specific request. What I'm getting at here, is in Virginia, you legally can only give a copy to the original client that paid for the survey 10 years ago. I have given out copies, when i knew the survey was recorded previously obviously. Not sure if that helps as every state and situation is different, but because of all this I handle these things like Ron Lang says above.
So, In Virginia, if the Client requests copies you should promptly give Everything to the Client.
problem solved.
now, my WAG is that all non-recording states would be the same... but who knows.
Tommy Young, post: 432657, member: 703 wrote: Caller: You did a survey on this tract 10 years ago and there is a problem with the description. Can I get a copy of the survey?
Me: (after looking at the file), yes we did it for Mr X. What is your relationship to him?
Caller: My family business bought it from him 4 years ago.
Me: Well, I'm not going to let loose a copy of the survey, but I don't mind sending you a copy of the small portion in dispute. We're only liable for the survey for 4 years after the date of the stamp, and I'm not going to bring myself into any problems.
So, I copied this area and sent it to her. There is no names, no certification, no company info, no date, nothing. What I gave her is little more than a cartoon. I did all this assuming that a lawyer mistyped the description I wrote.
She emails me back wanting a copy of the plat. I wrote out a nice long, polite, response that I would not be doing that.
Now she's got Mr. X calling and leaving messages wanting a copy of the plat. It turns out that when he sold her the property, he used the previous description, and not the one that I wrote. So at this point, legally, my survey does not exist. Mr. X can't find his copies, none exist outside of this building, and the 4 years has expired.
So now I've got to call Mr. X and tell him he's out of luck.
I've already made my mind up, but I was just wondering if there was anyone, anywhere, that would release a copy of this plat.
With the approval from the original client, of course I would (for a fee). The original is on file at the County Recorder's office, so why wouldn't I?
Is their a benefit to the public if the records of a boundary retracement are shared? Is the activity of a land surveyor's boundary retracement proprietary?
dwayne, post: 432868, member: 12506 wrote: Is their a benefit to the public if the records of a boundary retracement are shared? Is the activity of a land surveyor's boundary retracement proprietary?
Yes, huge benefits
No, not proprietary
dwayne, post: 432868, member: 12506 wrote: Is their a benefit to the public if the records of a boundary retracement are shared? Is the activity of a land surveyor's boundary retracement proprietary?
The benefit to the public (and the survey community is that these public records
JKinAK, post: 432775, member: 7219 wrote: help protect property rights and the fabric of the cadastre. It reduces the potential for survey error based gaps/overlaps. It gives you and every other surveyor reasons to accept/reject found monumentation. It protects and perpetuates your survey. It makes corner cutters think a little longer about which corners to cut since their mistakes/shoddy work will be of record.
A boundary survey impacts all adjoiners. It sounds like even though this activity NEVER impacts a single property (maybe an island property where you own the whole island). I'm not sure how/why a boundary survey could be proprietary... but it sounds like (unless the client is required by law to file the survey) some states (possibly Virginia) have laws which effectively make the boundary survey proprietary.
Chris Duncan, post: 432855, member: 7540 wrote: By law the all plat, notes, computations, research, and so forth belong to the client.
For those in states which don't require recordation of boundary plats, corner replacement, and surveys that reveal material differences in boundary locations... all of which are clearly beneficial for maintaining a cohesive boundary fabric... What is the rationale behind making boundary info difficult or impossible to obtain?
Holy Cow, post: 432758, member: 50 wrote: Silly people exist everywhere.
In 2002 a fellow purchases a mysterious set of three adjacent tracts, each being in a different half of a half of the southeast quarter of the section. In 2012 he has the description located by a surveyor who writes up three very nice "more particularly described as" metes and bounds tracks. In 2015 the fellow sells the three tracts using the original descriptions and ignores the metes and bounds descriptions entirely. What a doofus (both buyer and seller).
I'm not sure I follow you. If the original descriptions identified the wrong part then a new description is a good thing. If not, the aliquot descriptions are perfect without our added clutter. File the map and leave it alone...
eapls2708, post: 432675, member: 589 wrote: I'm not sure what you're liability concern is.
Would providing a copy of the survey, today, start the clock all over again?
-Dougie
Tommy Young, post: 432657, member: 703 wrote: Caller: You did a survey on this tract 10 years ago and there is a problem with the description. Can I get a copy of the survey?
Me: (after looking at the file), yes we did it for Mr X. What is your relationship to him?
Caller: My family business bought it from him 4 years ago.
Practice this speel until it's second nature, until you actually believe it yourself....
Me: Gee whiz. I'd really like to help you out. Well, all our surveys from that far back are archived. It will take a while to research and recover a file that old. And there was a fire in '08, a flood in '09, a hard drive crash in '11, and a hacker attack in '14. I'm not sure the survey you are looking for is still intact. But I do have all my notes and data going back to when the earth cooled and dinosaurs roamed. So I could reproduce a survey for you. But that will take some time and effort. My cost estimate to complete that work is....
JKinAK, post: 432888, member: 7219 wrote: The benefit to the public (and the survey community is that these public records
A boundary survey impacts all adjoiners. It sounds like even though this activity NEVER impacts a single property (maybe an island property where you own the whole island). I'm not sure how/why a boundary survey could be proprietary... but it sounds like (unless the client is required by law to file the survey) some states (possibly Virginia) have laws which effectively make the boundary survey proprietary.
For those in states which don't require recordation of boundary plats, corner replacement, and surveys that reveal material differences in boundary locations... all of which are clearly beneficial for maintaining a cohesive boundary fabric... What is the rationale behind making boundary info difficult or impossible to obtain?
I have asked this many times. The answers are usually one or a combination of the fillowing.
1. Money
2. Liability
3. I don't want the clients neighbors to know where their boundaries
4. That's how we have always done it and I don't want to change.
#1 I am not convinced. It seems to me that surveyors in recording states get paid more and boundary surveyors in recording states always seem to have enough work. I could be wrong though, and would love to see a study. Anyway, I would gladly exchange the income I could gain by charging for surveys I have already done, or resurveying a line that was surveyed last year for the sake of proffesional reputation.
#2 I don't understand at all. How does recording increase your liablity? It seems to me it would lower it because the next surveyor is more likely to agree with you.
#3 Seems to be based on a completely different understanding of what a boundary is and how they get established.
#4 Oh well.
I am licenced in a non recording state and recording states. I don't work in the non recording state anymore because the pay is much lower and I spend more time then I can charge for convincing old surveyors to let me see their surveys.
Chris Duncan, post: 432855, member: 7540 wrote: In Virginia we are not a recording/filing state. By law the all plat, notes, computations, research, and so forth belong to the client. We are technically supposed to give all originals of all of the above to the client, and then keep copies for ourselves. That said, I don't know a single surveyor that does this. We keep all originals and give copies of only the plat to the client, and then only give out copies of notes and such by specific request. What I'm getting at here, is in Virginia, you legally can only give a copy to the original client that paid for the survey 10 years ago. I have given out copies, when i knew the survey was recorded previously obviously. Not sure if that helps as every state and situation is different, but because of all this I handle these things like Ron Lang says above.
Do you have a link to that statute or regulation?
Tommy Young, post: 432672, member: 703 wrote: So let me get this straight. In this situation there is a boundary dispute, the original client has no current interest in the property, my survey description is not of record, and you would release a copy of the survey to the original client?
No. I did my job and collected my fee. I wouldn't give a copy out when it looks like it's about to go sideways. That's what Discovery and subpoenas are for.
