I'm working on the right of way along a portion of state highway through very rural Oklahoma. The centerline alignment - according to the 1930's state highways survey - almost corresponds to the section line but not quite. The section line and the centerline are not even parallel, but the separation is very small. About a foot at the most within the area currently being considered.
No clear indication anywhere why this is so. Your guesses are as good as mine. That's not my issue today.
The old map shows a right of way width of 50' each side of ..... of what? The centerline and section line are so close together on the map that you can't tell which is being dimensioned to.
The right of way was deeded by metes and bounds at the time of the mapping. The centerline is not mentioned in any way in the deeds. The section line is called, with dimensions not exactly 50 feet to the right of way. And not such that the width is 50 feet from the centerline as currently surveyed. So if I respect the language of the deeds I make the right of way width several tenths either side of 50 feet. And if I make it 50 feet either side of centerline I have to ignore the unambiguous language of the deeds.
I guess it would have been too easy to mention the centerline and a width in the deed.
Perhaps I'm being punished for taunting Richard Schaut.
Just how far do you go to interpret the intentions of the parties? The law says you take the "four corners of the deed". Common sense says nobody makes a variable width right of way in BF, Oklahoma.
My road dept doesn't stake CL when road gets resurfaced with HMA. Only new construction. Been that way since the 70ish for straight sections and 80ish for curves. Maybe we put some elev's on the supers. Widening is abuting UAC road and generally a tape job on each end with a straight line connecting.
Guess what I'm getting at is unless you find evidence to the contrary it sounds like your ROW is 50' each side of the original CL, or what was INTENDED to be the orginal CL.
edit: Is there some monumentation?
Steve
> edit: Is there some monumentation?
Hmmmm..yes. Not all I could wish for. About as much as there ever is. Enough that monumentation isn't the issue. Probably. In any case a very thorough search has been made and I'm convinced I have all I'm going to get.
100' Total Right of Way Width ?
There is plenty of room for the road to wiggle and squigle and still be within the right of way. Hold the section line which by the way is not straight, since the photo indicates an East-West alignment.
Pleas confirm your statement that the right of way was deeded by metes and bounds at the time of mapping. If so why would you need to ever see it in another deed? It is public record by document and by visual inspection. If so, hold those deeds unless the roadway indicates otherwise.
If you think a 1 foot difference is a defect in a long established road you are in the wrong profession.
Paul in PA
The right of way was deeded by metes and bounds at the time of the mapping. The centerline is not mentioned in any way in the deeds. The section line is called, with dimensions not exactly 50 feet to the right of way.
Sounds like you are dealing with lands owned in fee by several different parties, the described ROW was taken out of a parent parcel and the State Highway Department accepted the documents. I would probably be holding the ROW locations as described and measured from the Section Line. The burden lies with the state to negotiate and correct the descriptions to the lands they hold in fee. The adjoining fee owner has all he needs to defend his line as described. Was the State C/L description written from an as built, instead of using the section line? May be some historically timing of events involved here that predated any road ROW documents, old farm road improved and legalized may have been the object.
jud
It's 50' left and right of centerline! The centerline will be straight tangents beginning at a section or quarter corner. They didn't like to to P.I. at every corner back then.....
The plans should show a distance over to the CL from the Corners.
Hope this helps
Later
That pic looks familiar.........
Where is that?
:'(
100' Total Right of Way Width ?
> If you think a 1 foot difference is a defect in a long established road you are in the wrong profession.
Thanks, Paul. Where were you with that advise 24 years ago when I really needed it?
>Pleas confirm your statement that the right of way was deeded by metes and bounds at the time of mapping. If so why would you need to ever see it in another deed?
I don't need another deed. One is enough, if it is done right. My job is to place the deeded right of way on the ground. To do that, I need to know how to interpret the conflicting evidence. Nobody really cares about a few tenths of Oklahoma prairie, except the government agency I'm working for that wants to see the numbers on the map correspond to all the documents.
>It is public record by document and by visual inspection. If so, hold those deeds unless the roadway indicates otherwise.
So I put you down as saying I should show the right of way width as 49.73' at one end and 50.8' at the other. That's going to raise a few eyebrows. But that is what the language of the deed implies.
A good method I usually use is split the headwalls in the straight tangents, and use the provided curve data, radius and delta, then just offset it left and right. But! be aware that the are not always equal distances left and right.
It usually fits the right of way fence fairly good
You will find that the "current" section monumentation does not fit what the plans show.
If the P.I.'s fall outside the right of way, they may be in. I've found them to be existent on plans dating back to the 40's.
Good Luck....
>A good method I usually use is split the headwalls in the straight tangents, and use the provided curve data, radius and delta, then just offset it left and right. But! be aware that the are not always equal distances left and right.
I'm pretty satisfied with the section line and with the centerline alignment that I've developed. Did so pretty much as you say.
> It's 50' left and right of centerline! The centerline will be straight tangents beginning at a section or quarter corner. They didn't like to to P.I. at every corner back then.....
I'll put you down as favoring ignoring the deeds and going with the map then. The score stands at 2 for the deeds, one for the map.
The section line moved after the deed was written. Oh wait, that doesn't happen right?
joe
> The section line moved after the deed was written. Oh wait, that doesn't happen right?
They do dance around a little. There may not be two more different places to survey than Oregon and Oklahoma. Not in terms of the law as written, but in the attitude.
> ... I would probably be holding the ROW locations as described and measured from the Section Line.
Score one for the deeds.
The deeds are based on the plans! I would almost quess that they mention the exact stationing shown on them, or the ones I have seen that old did.
But! What do the adjoining land owners descriptions read? I bet they dont say "less highway right of way"!!!
:-O
> The deeds are based on the plans! I would almost quess that they mention the exact stationing shown on them, or the ones I have seen that old did.
It's also my guess that the deeds were made from the plans but I have no proof that it is so. The deeds make no mention of alignment stationing or even that the alignment or the survey exists. But that they did! They employ some bearings from the survey, but not universally.
> But! What do the adjoining land owners descriptions read? I bet they don't say "less highway right of way"!!!
They don't. Adjoining land is described as aliquot parts and make no mention of any roadway at all. Even though the property has changed hands since the highway was built.
We are talking about Oklahoma in the 1930's, right? Who was left in Oklahoma that really cared? Most of the land was owned by the mortgage holders after the borrowers gave up and headed for anywhere else, because anywhere else had to be a better place.
If it were in my backyard, the takings would have been 50 feet from the section line as recognized at that time. Few, if any, section corner monuments of high reliability may have been present along the entire route. The little section you are dealing worth may or may not have had a provable section line to start with. Curves were for rich people and places where nature dictated curves or nothing. Flatland Oklahoma doesn't need a bunch of silly curves.
> Just how far do you go to interpret the intentions of the parties? The law says you take the "four corners of the deed". Common sense says nobody makes a variable width right of way in BF, Oklahoma.
A couple of questions come to mind. In the first place, is it clear that the deed was drafted by the State? Does the language of the deed provide even a kernel by which other documents can be considered? For example, is there any mention of "as located by the State Highway Engineer" or some something similar that would show what the parties had in view at the time of the execution of the instrument?
Another question has to do with order of taking. I have seen screwy right-of-way takes where the centerline was actually relocated after the conveyance, and the original deed referred to an earlier state of the right-of-way map. Is this why the highway centerline as constructed didn't follow the section line?
And finally, was there a county road that the State Highway replaced? Did the highway engineers use the centerline of the road as their centerline and just not worry about where the section line really was?
> > Just how far do you go to interpret the intentions of the parties? The law says you take the "four corners of the deed". Common sense says nobody makes a variable width right of way in BF, Oklahoma.
>
> A couple of questions come to mind. In the first place, is it clear that the deed was drafted by the State? ....
There is no evidence as to who originated the deed. One assumes the great people at the State Highway Department, but there is simply no concrete evidence. The deed books do not even contain the original documents, but rather have the recorders transcription on the counties standard deed form.
> Another question has to do with order of taking. I have seen screwy right-of-way takes where the centerline was actually relocated after the conveyance, and the original deed referred to an earlier state of the right-of-way map. Is this why the highway centerline as constructed didn't follow the section line?
You may be on to something there, but I have no evidence that this is the case.
> And finally, was there a county road that the State Highway replaced? Did the highway engineers use the centerline of the road as their centerline and just not worry about where the section line really was?
In Oklahoma there is statutory right of way along all section lines. The width varies by the tribal treaty and/or federal statute effective in the particular area, but in this case it is 33 feet each side of the section line. This is the highway between the original state capital, Guthrie, and the county seat of the adjoining county, Kingfisher. So it's likely that the route was in common use very early on.
> We are talking about Oklahoma in the 1930's, right? Who was left in Oklahoma that really cared? Most of the land was owned by the mortgage holders after the borrowers gave up and headed for anywhere else, because anywhere else had to be a better place.
At that time, nobody. Luckily, times are a little better now. And it is in the here and now that I have to resolve this.
> If it were in my backyard, the takings would have been 50 feet from the section line as recognized at that time.
Trust me, there is no question here that the centerline and the section line are distinct and different. And as B.L. said, they did it frequently, It's not the first time I've seen it. It is the cockeyed metes and bounds of the right of way taking that is the difficulty here.
Should I go with the unambiguous language of the deed, or interpret what we all suppose they must have intended - but did not put in writing?.
> > And finally, was there a county road that the State Highway replaced? Did the highway engineers use the centerline of the road as their centerline and just not worry about where the section line really was?
> In Oklahoma there is statutory right of way along all section lines. The width varies by the tribal treaty and/or federal statute effective in the particular area, but in this case it is 33 feet each side of the section line. This is the highway between the original state capital, Guthrie, and the county seat of the adjoining county, Kingfisher. So it's likely that the route was in common use very early on.
Well, but thinking like a highway engineer, do you just split the right-of-way fences on the existing road and call that the "section line" without bothering to dig out the corners? Or do you run your location line from section corner to section corner and measure over to the fences and add some constant amount to each fence tie to take you to the new right-of-way line? In other words, was the right-of-way take a constant amount added to each side of some existing right-of-way as fenced? I'd think you'd see more of this funny business in the right-of-way deeds in the vicinity from the same project if that were so.
