Records and Ethics

I take it you are not in a recording state. For me, it's just a matter of fact that these maps are public record. Even when I was in Oklahoma - not a recording state - I operated with that mindset.

Why not charge $100 for a copy of an old survey - not freshly dated, not "wet stamped", just a copy. Enough to make it worth your while and enough to keep triflers away. I understand not wanting to restart the clock on liability. I don't understand the fear of sharing the results.

Michigan requires recording if there is a split. The tradition has always been that the landowner has some control of who gets the drawing because he paid for the work - at least to my understanding.

chuckh_02, post: 380136, member: 6258 wrote: ...The tradition has always been that the landowner has some control of who gets the drawing because he paid for the work...

Surveyors work for the public. Every time you run a boundary you are running the boundary of at least 2 owners. It doesn't matter who is paying the freight in terms of the results of the survey.

1 & 2 would get a copy after I received payment for my time and the value of the information. 3 gets a free copy that at the very least shows the boundary in common with my client's. During the contracting phase, I ask my clients if they object to me providing copies to neighbors if requested. If a hostile neighbor exists, I tell my client that I am obligated to share information related to the shared boundary. My CAD template is designed so that I can quickly produce a bare bones plat and I will take this with me to discuss the boundary with hostile neighbors.

1 & 2 would get a copy after I received payment for my time and the value of the information. 3 gets a free copy that at the very least shows the boundary in common with my client's. During the contracting phase, I ask my clients if they object to me providing copies to neighbors if requested. If a hostile neighbor exists, I tell my client that I am obligated to share information related to the shared boundary. My CAD template is designed so that I can quickly produce a bare bones plat and I will take this with me to discuss the boundary with hostile neighbors.

2 & 3 - No. They didn't pay for the survey and therefore have no claim to it. Quote them a price for a new survey on each prpoerty. You aren't in business to give things away. (At least I hope not)

If there is any question I require that the one requesting the copy get authorization from my client.

Dtp

I will share info with other surveyors that share their info.

Third party, neighbors, other neighbors and others must go thru the client to get their copy from the number of copies of info client received at end of survey.

Copies beyond that is negotiable in regard to purpose, who is asking, how they ask and what it takes to create the copy in relation to how much it will cost.

:gammon:

Mark Mayer, post: 380144, member: 424 wrote: Surveyors work for the public. Every time you run a boundary you are running the boundary of at least 2 owners. It doesn't matter who is paying the freight in terms of the results of the survey.

I agree with your first post. I'm not sure "Surveyor's work for the public" is quite correct. I agree that you should not base your opinion in "favor" of your client over fact, and you certainly set your monuments where the neighbor can find them, but anyone walking in to your office and demanding to see any of your records because "you work for the public" is not quite correct in my opinion. You are getting paid by your client, and not from taxpayer's dollars. You also have every right to charge them to make copies, if you so choose. Doing it for free, might help you earn respect and possibly get future work, however.

Tom Adams, post: 380212, member: 7285 wrote: I agree with your first post. I'm not sure "Surveyor's work for the public" is quite correct.

The Code of Ethics of the Professional Land Surveyors of Oregon states, in part:

[INDENT]" I will hold paramount the safety, health and welfare of the public in the performance of my professional duties...." (emphasis mine)
[/INDENT]
It does not say that I will hold my client's interests paramount. The LSAW's Code of Ethics (Washington) contains a nearly identical passage. That is what I mean when I say that Surveyors work for (ie/ serve) the public.

Not an issue in recording states except for ALTA's as they almost never get filed. I'll let those of you in the backward states argue this out.

Mark Mayer, post: 380226, member: 424 wrote: The Code of Ethics of the Professional Land Surveyors of Oregon states, in part:

[INDENT]" I will hold paramount the safety, health and welfare of the public in the performance of my professional duties...." (emphasis mine)
[/INDENT]
It does not say that I will hold my client's interests paramount. The LSAW's Code of Ethics (Washington) contains a nearly identical passage. That is what I mean when I say that Surveyors work for (ie/ serve) the public.

I definitely agree with holding the safety, health and welfare of the public paramount, in performance of professional duties. That does not make it wrong to charge for your services. As I said, I agreed with your first statement. I am just slightly disagreeing with the fact that you are working for the public. You don't go survey a property because someone orders you to as a "public servant". You work for your client but you do not allow your professional findings to be biased, but base your determinations based on the evidence. That is the act of honoring the property rights of "the public" in my opinion, and why your profession is licensed.

Just a difference in semantics. Not with the philosophy.

I have brought this up on this site at least a half dozen times. A fellow surveyor was asked to provide a copy of an old survey for a new owner to use for their closing. Some changes had been made to the property which created encroachments that understandingly were not on the survey. He was brought into the court case and was required to testify. Eventually, he was dismissed.
Afterward, the plaintiff's attorney, who knew the surveyor quite well, and was known to be one of the best in land cases in Alabama, told him he should never have released anything other than a new survey showing current conditions. He also said that once the survey was accepted by the client, the surveyor's obligations have been fulfilled.
If anyone wants a copy of a survey, let them get it from the party that paid for it. Or have their property surveyed.

Mark Mayer, post: 380144, member: 424 wrote: Surveyors work for the public. Every time you run a boundary you are running the boundary of at least 2 owners. It doesn't matter who is paying the freight in terms of the results of the survey.

From a non-recording State:
The person(s) requesting the survey are the ones who usually "pay the freight" therefore it is theirs and theirs alone. Adjacent owners regardless of how many there may be are in no way entitled to copies of the survey you performed for your client. If the adjacent owners are unsure of their boundaries I would suggest they have their property surveyed. I only give away records and plats I have done to other Surveyors, never the public.

Also from a non-recording state:
I find that few people fully understand the data represented on a given plat and that I can better serve the public trust by walking the lines with the new owners or performing a new survey. Emailing a plat reference or a copy of a plat with no explanation of the data or site visit could harm the public more than asking for a nominal fee.

Steve Gilbert, post: 380235, member: 111 wrote: I have brought this up on this site at least a half dozen times. A fellow surveyor was asked to provide a copy of an old survey for a new owner to use for their closing. Some changes had been made to the property which created encroachments that understandingly were not on the survey. He was brought into the court case and was required to testify. Eventually, he was dismissed.
Afterward, the plaintiff's attorney, who knew the surveyor quite well, and was known to be one of the best in land cases in Alabama, told him he should never have released anything other than a new survey showing current conditions. He also said that once the survey was accepted by the client, the surveyor's obligations have been fulfilled.
If anyone wants a copy of a survey, let them get it from the party that paid for it. Or have their property surveyed.

We require authorization from the original client to release any non-recorded documents.

Speaking to licensing and who the surveyor works for...

We are licensed to protect the safety, welfare, etc. of the public. That does not mean that our work product and the opinion it represents is necessarily something that any member of the public has a right to. If in private practice, your client paid for your opinion and any others have a right to access to the results of that opinion only to the extent that 1) it is by law a matter of public record (publicly filed map), or 2) the results of the opinion affects them or their property.

Back to the original question...

If it is a map of boundary survey that is not recorded, and if the requester is either a successor in title to my client or an adjoiner (or their attorney), then they get a copy for the cost of time (at standard billing rate) & materials expended to produce the copy.

If it is another surveyor who is performing another survey in the area, they get a copy too. Depending upon the existing or potential professional relationship with the requesting surveyor, they may get charged same as would an interested landowner, or they may not. They may get copies of field notes, or they may not.

Any others who have no direct interest in the boundaries depicted need to go through my former client or another interested party.

For non-boundary maps, such as topo maps or other maps of on-site conditions, prospective maps such as proposals for a subdivision that has not yet occurred, and other maps that may show more proprietary info than a boundary map does, all such requests need to go through the client except that depending on the specific info depicted, I may make such maps available to my client's successor in title under the same fee arrangement.

Any map copies produced will have the original date only and, depending upon the info depicted and the length of time that has passed since the survey, may have a note stamped or inked on it that cautions that on-site conditions may have changed since the survey was performed and that the drawing may no longer accurately reflect site conditions. I would normally try to place that note in a location where it does not obscure the mapped info but would still be visible if someone were to try to use the body of the map for some unintended purpose - like scanning, cropping out the title block, certifications, etc. and then using as a base for a site plan.

Property boundaries are of equal interest to the landowners on each side, and as such, the info, including the professional opinion as to their location is not proprietary to the paying client alone and so is not the client's to conceal, nor mine to conceal on my client's behalf from those with a legitimate interest.

But other info that may go on certain types of maps can be proprietary to the paying client and others may not or do not have a legitimate interest or right to that info. In those cases, it is the surveyor's duty to protect the client's information, and the surveyor's right or authority to determine who, other than the client may have a legitimate interest is very limited.

The concept of non-recording states still boggles my mind.

Mark Mayer, post: 380144, member: 424 wrote: Surveyors work for the public. Every time you run a boundary you are running the boundary of at least 2 owners. It doesn't matter who is paying the freight in terms of the results of the survey.

Not all surveyors work for the public, some of us are in private practice. If surveyors don't value other surveyors work, how do we ever sell it to clients?

Had a recent contact from a well respected surveyor asking me to provide deed plots and other work I had done in an area to produce a map. I said they could hire me as a consultant on the project, or I could figure up a fee for reviewing the file and sending what I could, or I could provide my map free of charge with the clients consent. Never a word back. Not a thank you for your time or anything.

We are not public employees when in private practice. Just because my work may or may not affect an adjoiner, does not mean they are entitled to it free of charge. If you choose to own real property in the U.S. your consent to our system of cadastre is implied. You are required to pay for a surveyors opinion of your boundaries. Otherwise you acquiesce in the opinion your neighbor paid for as witnessed by the stakes in the ground.

I hate this "surveyors work for the public" BS. Until the public hires me and pays my salary in some governmental capacity, I work for one client at a time.