I am noticing a trend in record drawings that all professional stamps are removed from the drawings before they are sent to me. This in Washington state. For example I am doing a survey along a highway in a suburb of the big city. I know that the highway was repaved in the past few years so I request as-built drawings from the city via a public records request. I received hundreds of pages of documents which look to be quite helpful, however on each sheet there is a disclaimer that reads:
Record Drawings
Revisions Drawn by XXXX (name without any professional title) Date XXX
These record drawings have been prepared, in part, on the basis of information compiled by others. They are not intended to represent in detail the exact location, type of component nor manner of construction. The engineer will not be responsible for any errors or omissions which have been incorporated into the record drawings.
Next to this there is a stamp which states "refer to original drawings for signatures and seals"
and the professional stamp has been removed from all sheets.
A quick look at WAC 196-23-020:
(1) Final documents are those documents that are prepared and distributed for filing with public officials, use for construction, final agency approvals or use by clients. Any final document must contain the seal/stamp, signature and date of signature of the licensee who prepared or directly supervised the work. For the purpose of this section "document" is defined as plans, specifications, plats, surveys, as-built documents prepared by the licensee, and reports.
So when I do a public records request am I not asking for final documents? This is not the first time that this has happened. Is it because I am getting a pdf of the document and not the original? When I send out a pdf of a survey it still has my stamp on it, should I instead replace my stamp with a stamp that states "refer to original drawings for signatures and seals" 🙂
I recommend that you pose this question just as you have to the BOR. They are very responsive and should address this right away.
yeah thats where I am headed with this but I thought I would post it here first. I have received these drawings with the stamps removed from two agencies. I think the agencies would tell me that if I want to see the stamp I would have to come in person to view the documents. My opinion is that the stamp is part of the public record that I am requesting. If you are doing work for a public agency, at least in Washington, you should know that your work will end up being a public record
Not sure if this applies to your particular situation, but it's not uncommon here for the "record drawing" (as built) to be a copy of the final design plans that were redlined with field design changes by the contractor during construction (either in CAD or as a PDF). If I were the original designing professional, I pretty sure I wouldn't want copies of these drawings being disseminated years down the road with my seal on them when I had no control over then once they left my hands.
Around my part, our office regularly does as-built surveys on our own plans. If the actual improvement is not where the plans show it, we mark up the plans with the correct location. But then, those plans come back to our office and the Engineer that signed the plans originally reviews these as-builts with our survey department and then the final as-built drawings are signed and stamped and given to the city/county. We don't do this for every project, but many of the local cities here require it for residential subdivisions and commercial development.
Why would there be an as built plan survey of a road paving project? Were there grade changes?
Sean R-M, post: 355563, member: 7138 wrote:
So when I do a public records request am I not asking for final documents? This is not the first time that this has happened. Is it because I am getting a pdf of the document and not the original? When I send out a pdf of a survey it still has my stamp on it, should I instead replace my stamp with a stamp that states "refer to original drawings for signatures and seals" 🙂
I never put my seal on a pdf. I have been erasing my name plate as well. All company info remains but I make sure it's not to be confused with an official copy. When asked I say I'm unable to stamp pdfs.
I also put a watermark on the pdf that only appears when printed that says unauthorized copy all over it.
Many drawings have the recording and testimony information on an attached letter.
I found one page in the Plat records and the other page in the Offical Public Records.
The " digital search" revealed the letter and at the top of the recorded document was stamped where the drawing was located.
Good, because the Plat Records Index did not reveal a drawing.
0.02
That's a great observation, and it's something many professionals in our field have noticed.
Although WAC 196-23-020 explicitly requires that final documents bear stamps, various agencies tend to distinguish between record drawings and the actual "final documents" submitted for construction or agency endorsement.
Subhabrata Roy
Construction Consultant
Tejjy Inc
So, around these parts....
As-built plans are generally created by red-lining (or green) the as constructed conditions on top of the original design plans. Since the base drawing is an image or pdf of the original design plans, they contain the original certifications and seals. The originally certifying design professionals, however, are not involved in the as-built process.
Our process is to "X" out the original seals, certs, signatures (and company logos if applicable) in red; then add a new as-built certification (also red) that the design professional(s) certifying to the as-built signs/seals.
So when I do a public records request am I not asking for final documents? This is not the first time that this has happened. Is it because I am getting a pdf of the document and not the original? When I send out a pdf of a survey it still has my stamp on it, should I instead replace my stamp with a stamp that states "refer to original drawings for signatures and seals"
So, my thought is the state agency is removing the original designs seals on drawings (actually very smart) where other people, not under the designer's responsible charge, have added information to the drawing. I suspect the proper seals would be on the original, unadulterated, design plans when/if you request those as opposed to the record drawings
So, my thought is the state agency is removing the original designs seals on drawings (actually very smart) where other people, not under the designer's responsible charge, have added information to the drawing.
We actually had a discussion about something along these lines at the local society meeting a couple weeks ago. Our discussion had to do with plats but basically if an easement in a plat gets vacated the county people go in and write notes on the mylar saying so. A few guys questioned the wisdom or even the authority of marking up an original document like that.
If they wanted to do this to a paper copy or a .pdf, or even a duplicate mylar then that seems like the better way to go about it. Whichever way it seems like the seal should be removed from the altered copy.
We actually had a discussion about something along these lines at the local society meeting a couple weeks ago. Our discussion had to do with plats but basically if an easement in a plat gets vacated the county people go in and write notes on the mylar saying so. A few guys questioned the wisdom or even the authority of marking up an original document like that.
State statutes require marking the original plat with a note of vacation. Sadly, it often wasn't done. It's a good practice, note the vacation and the meeting that created it. Very helpful.