Fun one that I'm working on back from the holiday...
45 acre ALTA survey. We get the title and the 2 year old subdivision map (subdivision was for a small parcel in the middle of the property and does not affect the outbounds). There are calls at every corner plus lot of POL's, around 30 monuments of varying types. So we run the field work, find everything, traverse closes great. Easy right!!? Plot up the deed and the subdivision map and nothing hits or works...nothing. We run back out there to check for blunders, review our data, everything checks out. We run back to the old deeds and the bearings and such all match going back around 60 years....BUT there are no evidence calls in the older deeds and limited calls in the adjoing deeds. There are no issues between the adjoining deeds and subject deed.
So now I have a current deed and subdivision map which calls around 30 monuments to be at corners or on line, old deeds with no or few calls, and monuments missing by anywhere from 0.5' to around 3.0' with no real correlation between anything (pulling in all different directions). About 10 of those monuments were set by the subdivision surveyor and none of those work within themselves either. I'm holding some of the older corners (ie stone on end, old fence post, wall end, etc) and I can make it work reasonably so that's what I am sticking with. I'm having trouble trusting or holding the newer stuff though and may call some of the really bad ones as being out even though they where recently set and called for. Still debating how to best handle this though. Also need to call the other surveyor and figure out what the heck is going on...
Fun times.
I've told the story here a couple of times of the subdivision where the monuments were all placed before the lot was graded. The excavators pulled up each pin in turn, regraded, and replaced the pin back in it's "original" place -just as neat and tidy as ever. They were, of course, all 1/2' to 3' this way and that way.
That sounds like something that is likely to have happened by relying upon paper surveys and not making a new survey 2yrs ago.
Those numbers also resemble some familiar RTK oversights.
My most recent project involves a 3ft error and a 34ft error in the middle of the division of 500+ acres into tracts of 1 acre, 4 acres, 300 acres, 74 acres, 28 acres with less than 15yr old surveys and a multitude of tracts surveyed a century ago.
The big blunder appears to be from mistaking a reference monument set on dry land at the edge of a slough for that of the the actual property corner location that falls in the water.
There was also a no licensed friend of a friend surveying out there making the largest land owner believe he owned much of the land across a road and cutting access off to some land owners.
The crow is being prepared as I type.
:bomb:
A subdivision in the middle definitely affects the outbounds, because the inbounds are now also outbounds.
How does one get from the subdivided parcel to beyond the oubounds? Easements appear necessary? How many ties from the outbound monuments to inbound monuments?
How does the deed read?
A few years back I surveyed a parcel that had 4 interior adjacent tract exceptions as two parcels. I surveyed the whole lot and then wrote an entirely new description that included10+ interior acres being added (5th exception) to one parcel. It was 31 courses, the 12th course being a tie into the exceptions and the 27th tie course being along the 12th course in a reverse direction. That way I could give a net acreage without having to do a gross less exceptions.
Paul in PA
Paul in PA, post: 406085, member: 236 wrote: A subdivision in the middle definitely affects the outbounds, because the inbounds are now also outbounds.
A 100x100 square was cut out the middle of the property for a tower accessed through an easement
How does one get from the subdivided parcel to beyond the oubounds? Easements appear necessary? How many ties from the outbound monuments to inbound monuments?
One bearing tie to one rebar set for the interior parcel. Holding that rebar for the interior parcel.
How does the deed read?
Current deed is nice a clear with lots of calls. Previous deed has same bearings and distances with no calls. Adjoiners match our bearings and distances with a couple of calls.
tomchurch, post: 406076, member: 10174 wrote: Fun one that I'm working on back from the holiday...
45 acre ALTA survey. We get the title and the 2 year old subdivision map (subdivision was for a small parcel in the middle of the property and does not affect the outbounds). There are calls at every corner plus lot of POL's, around 30 monuments of varying types. So we run the field work, find everything, traverse closes great. Easy right!!? Plot up the deed and the subdivision map and nothing hits or works...nothing. We run back out there to check for blunders, review our data, everything checks out. We run back to the old deeds and the bearings and such all match going back around 60 years....BUT there are no evidence calls in the older deeds and limited calls in the adjoing deeds. There are no issues between the adjoining deeds and subject deed.
So now I have a current deed and subdivision map which calls around 30 monuments to be at corners or on line, old deeds with no or few calls, and monuments missing by anywhere from 0.5' to around 3.0' with no real correlation between anything (pulling in all different directions). About 10 of those monuments were set by the subdivision surveyor and none of those work within themselves either. I'm holding some of the older corners (ie stone on end, old fence post, wall end, etc) and I can make it work reasonably so that's what I am sticking with. I'm having trouble trusting or holding the newer stuff though and may call some of the really bad ones as being out even though they where recently set and called for. Still debating how to best handle this though. Also need to call the other surveyor and figure out what the heck is going on...
Fun times.
Long ago I worked with Eddie B. Murray, PLS in Missouri. He taught me the best habit I've ever learned.
Stack up all deeds in date order, oldest on top. Read the whole pile in the order they happened. This only works if you have them all.
Now that I am in a recording state I get to add surveys to the mix. It is amazing how many piles of crap polish up nice and pretty.
Once you know your way around, call the other Surveyor. Sit down with your organized stack and see what you learn. Done right you can resolve issues before they blow up and make a friend or two in the process.
Good Luck, Tom
Stack up all deeds in date order, oldest on top. Read the whole pile in the order they happened. This only works if you have them all.
......Sit down with your organized stack and see what you learn. Done right you can resolve issues before they blow up and make a friend or two in the process.
I completely agree with this method and have found many issues can be found, identified and worked out by reading the flow of intent from Deed to Deed.
On the found issues with the newer work, it would be best to open that dialogue and start going over the information together to figure out what happened or what needs to happen. Good Luck.
Deeds do not always follow where the surveyor intended them to go.
Paul in PA
Paul in PA, post: 406116, member: 236 wrote: Deeds do not always follow where the surveyor intended them to go.
Paul in PA
And more commonly the reverse is true...
tomchurch, post: 406090, member: 10174 wrote: Current deed is nice a clear with lots of calls. Previous deed has same bearings and distances with no calls. Adjoiners match our bearings and distances with a couple of calls.
Maybe look @ some of the older deeds ignoring the current deed. Maybe some of the found monuments might make more sense, and the current deed is the "outlier" of all the evidence. Should the latest deed-writer have accepted some of his/her found monuments?
Also, can you back-in the call to the tied-to interior lot to the monument they used as their point of commencement? That might be evidence as to where an older exterior point was.
You've probably tried everything....just throwing some thoughts out there.
Mark Mayer, post: 406079, member: 424 wrote: I've told the story here a couple of times of the subdivision where the monuments were all placed before the lot was graded. The excavators pulled up each pin in turn, regraded, and replaced the pin back in it's "original" place -just as neat and tidy as ever. They were, of course, all 1/2' to 3' this way and that way.
My wife's parents are country folks and "close enough" is a relative term. Context is important! Not long after the wife and I married, father in law needed a couple of his lot corners found or reset. His garden had slowly grown and he knew one corner was in the middle of said garden. Said he accidentally knocked it out "bout five years ago". I spent a day taking my time and enjoying hot meals and cold tea. The following spring we happened to be there when FIL started plowing his garden. Mother in law stood close to the rebar corner until FIL got close on the tractor. Them MIL pulled the already loose rebar up and stepped to the side until the tractor passed. Then she promptly stuck it back in the ground. That was the last time I resurveyed their property...
Had a client for a subdivision many years ago tell me his fence crew would "pull the pin", build the fence, then put the pin "back in the exact spot". :scream:
With that many monuments in consideration, I'd use a good best-fit coordinate transformation software, using a rigid scale (1.000).
Might find that some monuments fit better than you think. Add all pairs of points (your survey and old call). Remove pairs with highest residuals until you get results that look realistic.
Stacy Carroll, post: 406162, member: 150 wrote: My wife's parents are country folks and "close enough" is a relative term. Context is important! Not long after the wife and I married, father in law needed a couple of his lot corners found or reset. His garden had slowly grown and he knew one corner was in the middle of said garden. Said he accidentally knocked it out "bout five years ago". I spent a day taking my time and enjoying hot meals and cold tea. The following spring we happened to be there when FIL started plowing his garden. Mother in law stood close to the rebar corner until FIL got close on the tractor. Them MIL pulled the already loose rebar up and stepped to the side until the tractor passed. Then she promptly stuck it back in the ground. That was the last time I resurveyed their property...
The standard, as I understand it, would be to set the corner monument down low enough to not be disturbed by the plow or other equipment.
Shawn Billings, post: 406217, member: 6521 wrote: With that many monuments in consideration, I'd use a good best-fit coordinate transformation software, using a rigid scale (1.000).
Might find that some monuments fit better than you think. Add all pairs of points (your survey and old call). Remove pairs with highest residuals until you get results that look realistic.
Call FrancisH....
Tom Adams, post: 406268, member: 7285 wrote: Call FrancisH....
Ouch
Shawn Billings, post: 406270, member: 6521 wrote: Ouch
Oops, sorry. I didn't add a smiley-face to that.
The good news is (according to some) it would be an in-State call.
Tom Adams, post: 406266, member: 7285 wrote: The standard, as I understand it, would be to set the corner monument down low enough to not be disturbed by the plow or other equipment.
My father in law was a good man but he didn't always plan ahead. In his mind, I'm a surveyor and can reset it whenever necessary. Typically, we would have set offsets and after a while I ended up doing that.
