Geoff Ashworth, post: 339690, member: 47 wrote: I've found it ironic that a topo that I've been working on lately is at a real estate office.
Let me guess.... they were able to tell you where the property corners are (and did not feel the need to have the lost surveyed anyway)
Brad Ott, post: 339207, member: 197 wrote: We delay closings
And as far as they're concerned they only thing we can possibly contribute is another reason for the sale to fall through completely.
I know there is probably no way to do it tactfully, and especially not by a surveyor; but a realtor like that should have their butt chewed out. They could probably get in real trouble if they advised someone to not hire a lawyer if they had a major legal issue.
Good for you John. That's what a surveyor does.
I've convinced a few real estate agents that it was worth hiring me to flag the boundaries of wooded lots. There are a few undeveloped large-tract subdivisions in my area and I just flag them using my compass and put an accuracy statement in the contract. While I'm flagging, I search for a good house site and rough stake a house. It gives the real estate agent something to sell and I just charge a flat $75/hour to do something I enjoy. Once in a while a corner will be missing or something else will not add up and I either stop there or negotiate a boundary survey. ot
And your board lets you do this without providing a stamped survey plat?
Why would you need to provide a stamped plan in order to flag a line between two monuments?
Just flagging the line would seem reasonable. But I see discussions on here that seem to indicate a lot of jurisdictions would require you to check the fit of the monuments and their neighbors and recertify. How do you know those are really the monuments and they have not been moved?
A doctor can treat you for an ulcer and if you die because it was really stomach cancer and he didn't do all the tests possible, he won't be reprimanded. If you flag a stake the utility company moved and somebody builds over the line, you will be in trouble both financially and professionally. You didn't do the "cat scan and MRI."
The argument for doing it would be that you are using your skills and survey knowledge to help flag a line between two existing monuments. You are not certifying that the monuments are the true property corner.
The argument against, as I see it, is that since (if) you are a licensed land surveyor, it would be reasonable for a customer to think that you have special knowledge as to the property line location. Many of them think that we have some magical knowledge beyond their comprehension (or otherwise do not know the intricacies involved in surveying in a checking monuments to determine their "pedigree" so to speak. The only thing I can think of is if they relied on your stakeout and built improvements accordingly then were challenged as to where the line really was by the adjoiner, the landowner would immediately point to the land surveyor and say that, that professional over there staked the line for me.
It's much easier for a fence-builder or other nonsurveyor to say "hey I was just marking a line between those two survey marks, I don't know if their the actual corner or not." than it is for a land surveyor to make such a claim, since the land surveyor is considered an expert and should know the dangers in staking an unconfirmed land line.
In WV it is considered a survey. You can't do it unless you are willing to put your license on it. Two former bosses of mine were sued and lost by doing something similar to what you are stating. They called them timber surveys. They paid for the trees across the line even though it was understood that it was an approximate boundary location. I will flag something if it has a good survey on it that I am willing to put my license on and willing to go to court to defend. If not they have to get a boundary survey. It's just not worth the liability. It may be different in your state. In WV our laws state that we are to survey to the accuracy required for each survey performed. No cut and dry distance. If they are timbering or building then it needs to be pretty accurate.
In NC simply flagging corners is considered surveying and a plat or report is required by the licensing board. Further more if the project is within 2000 feet of an NGS monument you are required to tie it to grid, whether you are doing a full blown survey or just kicking up corners. Once a corner is flagged by a surveyor and someone relies on it, the surveyor holds the liability.
I no longer flag or paint possible corners when looking at a job for quoting purpose either. Not long ago I painted a rr spike in the road while just seeing if there were any corners existing. I called the perspective client a few days later to give them price to do the survey. The first words they said were thanks for finding my corner we built our fence this weekend. Who owns that liability if the fence is wrong? I would guess I do. Lessons learned.
No Way! You painted a spike. He doesn't even necessarily know it was you who painted it. I've seen guys who painted a spot where they left off topoging for the day. If you use that paint spot as a corner, that's on you.
Tom Adams, post: 340012, member: 7285 wrote: No Way! You painted a spike. He doesn't even necessarily know it was you who painted it. I've seen guys who painted a spot where they left off topoging for the day. If you use that paint spot as a corner, that's on you.
I painted it thinking hey the field crew wont have no problem finding it if we get the job. I told him during the conversation that I had not performed the survey yet and I had painted it so the crew could find it easily. He said that was all he needed and asked what he owed me. I said you don't owe me anything, I haven't done the survey yet. So I actually lost a job from painting up an object before getting the job.
John Giles, post: 340007, member: 57 wrote: In WV it is considered a survey. You can't do it unless you are willing to put your license on it. Two former bosses of mine were sued and lost by doing something similar to what you are stating. They called them timber surveys. They paid for the trees across the line even though it was understood that it was an approximate boundary location. I will flag something if it has a good survey on it that I am willing to put my license on and willing to go to court to defend. If not they have to get a boundary survey. It's just not worth the liability. It may be different in your state. In WV our laws state that we are to survey to the accuracy required for each survey performed. No cut and dry distance. If they are timbering or building then it needs to be pretty accurate.
In NC as I understand it we are suppose to provide a signed and sealed plat showing what we surveyed or signed and sealed report of survey stating what was found and what was set and the reference documents that we used to perform the survey work by. We are in violation if there is a grid control monument within 2000' of the property and it is not tied to, even for this kind of work. I was in a seminar and someone representing our state board stated that if we flag a property corner and a grid monument is within 2000' and we did not tie to it, we are in violation.
Edward Killough, NCPLS
When the client relies upon your act of tying a flag and builds his fence, not only are you liable for that, he should be responsible for paying for your time in doing so, "the guy owes your money". IMVHO
Adam, I think you are right on. I was only replying to "Who owns that liability if the fence is wrong? I would guess I do. Lessons learned."
I say no way that you have any liability. If you painted a monument where you found one in case you get the job, and you don't want your crew to have to search for the same one you found, that is just smart work, so your crews are more efficient. Hopefully the client understands he is using this @ his own risk
I contacted the board regarding the flagging of a line between monuments in a recorded subdivision, and they said it was acceptable as long as my contract explained what I was doing and my methods. I wouldn't dream of building a business model around flagging with a compass, but in certain situations it can prevent harm to the public and can therefore be justified. Again, I am not talking about staking lots in a subdivision where buildings have been erected, I'm talking about hanging flagging on tree branches in ghost subdivisions so a realtor doesn't sell the wrong lot as I've witnessed and documented in the past.
I can appreciate the concern for liability, but if my decision was to automatically insist on a full retracement, no matter the specific circumstance, I would have to accept that my work had little value beyond compliance with local regulation. I was taught to keep lines in subdivision as straight as possible and to put a great deal of effort into setting and witnessing monuments. IÛªd feel kinda sad if I knew that there was not even one PLS who trusted me or themselves enough to flag a couple of corners of a lot in my subdivision. For you PLSs who have never run a line with a compass, is there any situation in which you would do so?
ekillo and Adam:
A PLS in NC is not bound to tie every action to grid. Counties have the option to not adopt GS-47-30 but also if you review the mapping requirements you will find the following:
21 NCAC 56 .1604
MAPPING REQUIREMENTS FOR BOUNDARY SURVEYS
(d) All plats (maps), unless marked as "Preliminary Plat - Not for recordation, conveyances, or sales" shall be sealed, signed and dated by the Professional Land Surveyor and shall contain the followingÛ?(9) Tie lines as required and defined in Rule .1602(g)
Perhaps you can explain how it is that Realtors are paid a fixed percentage while surveyors can't even discuss such a thing?
