Reactions?

You have to consider the source. The sentiment was written by a kid who hasn't even graduated from college yet, let alone gotten a feel for what land surveying is really about. He's still at Square One, and his perspective is thus limited.

I remember the very first TAPS Conference that I attended after getting my surveying license.

I was introduced to one of the members of the Board of Examiners, Mr. Phil Carter. He shook my hand, and told me that it was good to meet me. He then told me that now that I had my license, the real learning begins.

After having my license for 13 years, I have to say that is was SO right. I learn something new every day.

I remember one day, while working for a former employer, A young, fresh out of college, engineering graduate, made a smart elic comment regarding the time it was taking my crew to figure out the new robot. (We had only had the robot less than two weeks). This was not the only comment he had made regarding his "expertise", and how he cold figure out surveying issues much better than myself, right out of college. The three bosses were out of town on a job, and he and I were sharing an office because I was in the field about 80% of the time.

He was a really good guy, but very arrogant at the time, because both his grandfather, and his dad, were engineers, and pretty successful. After he made that last comment, I looked at the secretary, and told her that I was not to be disturbed. I calmly walked into the office we shared, and shut the door. We had a very calm, come to Jesus meeting, about the comments, and arrogance he was exhibiting. After about 20 minutes of explaining how things were going to be, and that I was licensed, and had 10 or so years of real world experience over him at the time, that I deserved a little respect, and that type of behavior was not going to get him anywhere in this profession.

After that discussion, we got along great, and never had any more issues after that. I have even worked on some projects with his dad.

These new graduates just need things explained to them, like Jim eluded to. Once they get a dose of the real world, they will grow up, just like many of us did.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education" - Mark Twain*.

This realization comes slower to some folks.

*attributed to Twain, although the Quote Investigator web site says it was likely the work of Grant Allen, who often wrote many variations of schooling interfering with education, including the following:

One year in Italy with their eyes open would be worth more than three at Oxford; and six months in the fields with a platyscopic lens would teach them strange things about the world around them that all the long terms at Harrow and Winchester have failed to discover to them. But that would involve some trouble to the teacher.

What a misfortune it is that we should thus be compelled to let our boys’ schooling interfere with their education!

I was introduced to one of the members of the Board of Examiners, Mr. Phil Carter. He shook my hand, and told me that it was good to meet me. He then told me that now that I had my license, the real learning begins.

I remember telling my wife, (girlfriend at the time), the same thing after she graduated college as a civil engineer. She wanted to take after her grandfather. Got her first job and worked 6 monthes. Absolutely hated it. Quit and went back to school and is now an elementary school principal.

We all can learn something from anybody.

When we think that we can't, we have closed our minds to any more advancement and will get no further.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to someone who has absolutely no clue what they are talking about. But eventually that kid will develop a foundation from which to start and if he is Fortunate Enough to work under the right people, he/she will be able to weave it together and it'll all start to make sense to them. The goal of a College Education IMO is to learn how to learn. The Theory is ok but the application is what counts, regardless of the profession.
This image sums it up

>
>
> You may, or may not, remember that I was beaten up quite severely on this board some months ago when I suggested that young graduates of such programs should be learning from us rather than teaching us. Someone, I forget who, thought that we have a lot to learn from these talented young button pushers.
>
>
>
> Don

It was me.

So, how ya been?

Stephen

Awesomely cool graphics.

But you forgot the one where there is experience without knowledge. That one just shows a bunch of line segments.

Stephen

> Awesomely cool graphics.
>
> But you forgot the one where there is experience without knowledge. That one just shows a bunch of line segments.
>
>
> Stephen

You're right, that graphic should reflect a combination of the two

As I learned from doing some "ground truthing" there is always going to be the need for someone to get out there in the mud.

Of course, NASA knew they could have done much more if they didn't have to carry a human along for the ride.

My Son came to work for me after graduating college.

When he came aboard he was going to change our little world with his "higher learning".

6 months later, after many many times of challenging the old man, he has learned that I am one stubborn uneducated SOB that has experienced life lessons in what is called the "Real World".

Good news is that he is still employed with the company and has a different attitude and things are working out and I am proud of him.

College Education is not the answer in our profession, I have put 2 through college and I admit that having a degree helps finding a job, but does not mean you are smarter than the guy next to you with experience.

Randy

The photo on P. 9 of Foresight kind of says it all. Caption calls out "chisled crosses", whereas a knowledgable eye will recognize the 1/4 significance.

I suppose that's the fallicy of only learning from a phd instead of also some crusty old fart who spent his years sniffing out footsteps.

Not all experience is equal. Some folks have been working 10 years and have 1 year of experience 10 times.

Our company prefers to take old dogs with good pedigrees and that are open to new ideas and team them with these young punks with good pedigrees and that are open to new ideas.

The operative word here is “team”.

The old dog can show how things have been done successfully and the young punk typically handles technology better.

> "...with today's technology, GPS, LiDAR, and the like, there is only so much one can learn in the field."

I agree with this. What you can learn in the field is finite and limited to what your associates know and the circumstances of where your job takes you. That's not to say that a person couldn't, on their own time, seek more knowledge than what their mentors know, and amass a collection of books, and learn everything that can be learned in college on their own, but that's not exactly "in the field" learning.

As for me, I learned things about surveying in college that I never would have learned from a mentor, or 100 years of field experience. Also, I learned things from a mentor that I never would have learned in 100 years of college. That's why getting a license these days in Florida requires an equal amount of college education and experience. I fully support that.

You two sound like me and my dad. The notable exception is that I got licensed without the degree, and then went back and got mine. By that time, I was managing two crews and most of the business model. My degree was in business and it helped tremendously.

The real issue that I see is the retention and application of the knowledge from college. Had I not been engaged in the top tier of our business, those "pearls of wisdom" that I picked up in college, may have been lost. We have noticed VERY tangible gains from my college degree and it has nothing to do with surveying.

I will say, that my final semester, I had an elective open. I took the Legal Principles class at UT taught by an RPLS from Tyler. There were two really booksmart kids in that class and we had a friendly competition as to who could blow the bell curve. These two kids did not have the license behind their name. Even though I was already licensed, the class FORCED me to reread, with a bit more experience, things I'd read in the past. Things looked different from a surveying standpoint. Points I thought clear, were muddled while some difficult issues I had, suddenly became clear. I'm a better surveyor for having had that class with the proper attitude.

It did not take me long to realise that all a college degree meant in the real world was that you had a certificate that said you could be trained. +o(

Let's just get down to brass tacks.

Very few people will say that all you need to make it as a professional is formal education. I would never say that. Most professions have an experience component to them, and ours unquestionably does.

But there are a good number of people who say that you don't need formal education at all to become an effective professional.

And that is why our profession is where it is today.

A profession needs to have its knowledge base entrusted to institutions of formal education. While there are numerous individuals who become effective professionals without formal education, they are exceptions.

And WHY is this so????

Because formal education applies the scientific method to its body of knowledge to weed out inaccuracies. Experience, in general, does not.

Stephen

I wasn't licensed when I went through NMSU, but had a few years of surveying under my belt and that helped tremendously!

So, who won the bet??

Fair statements all of them to be sure; however, that particular mindset underscores a loss of experience when the student feels superior to the teacher due to animal skin on the wall. That can breed a situation of no respect for the mentor. Now, in 50 years, it will be a moot point, but we will have something else to bitch about then, but in the interim, without adding that experience component, and forcing the student to recognize this, how long do you feel that it will take for a segment of our profession to death spiral into an abyss?