Leon,
I don't KNOW the answer to your question off the top of my head, but I do know that the Railroad 10 Chord Spiral is a different "curve" than the Searles Spiral (neither of which are TRUE spirals).
I would have to dig into Searles & Ives and get my head around things. I have not encountered a "10 Chord" in a very long time, and don't really remember much about them. The last non-Searles I had to deal with were Talbots...
If you don't have Searles & Ives, or can't find any data on the Web, I should have some time this weekend to help you out.
Up to my butt in work right now (thankfully).
Loyal
The railroad deeds in Nebraska will generally just state the quarter section that it was placed in and the width of the right-of-way. No specifics on the exact location, alignment, or curves. The distances to section corners and the curve data came later through local and railroad survey maps. I believe this was because the railroads needed to obtain the right-of-way first through a general preliminary route survey and then constructed it to a best fit for their needs. Some are also blanket easements and not fee.
Knowing when railroads first began using spirals would be helpful, but this might be a question that is hard to determine since spirals were often a necessity of increased speed to prevent derailments. I doubt that many low-speed local branch lines ever had spirals.
But, without taking this too far in the wrong direction, the basic question is whether the lot line that followed the right-of-way in 1896 followed a simple curve which I believe it did, therefore the spiral is a moot point when it comes to the right-of-way line. Interesting conversation, nonetheless.
I will compute the ROW based upon a simple curve and also show the centerline of the tracks based upon having spirals.
I'm not sure what you'd use for curve data when you insert a simple curve to the alignment. For deeds that convey a strip of land 60 feet from centerline, what "centerline" data are you going to use? It seems you'd have to completely make up your own data if you choose not to use the given data.
There's enough information on the plat it seems to double check which ever result you end up with.
JBS
What's your source for the spiral and simple curve data for the RR? VAL map, recorded deeds, US Grant. Was the land patented when the RR first passed there? You date the RR to 1871, I'd guess no spiral then. Maybe by 1896 the RR had been spiraled. Even a blanket easement should have become fixed once the RR had been constructed. If all the RR has is an easement wouldn't the lots go to the CL. Is the RR still in service?
I agree with LRDAY. I would look at other curves on the same RR Line and around the same date to shed some more light on what looks like an assumption. I donÛªt think you would have to go survey more tracks, just look at more records to see if there is a standard practice of that RR.
I agree with LRDAY. I would look at other curves on the same RR Line and around the same date to shed some more light on what looks like an assumption. I donÛªt think you would have to go survey more tracks, just look at more records to see if there is a standard practice of that RR.
Once again, the tracks move and have little if anything to do with the corridor location. They should not be used for property line or easement location determination.
JBStahl, post: 343747, member: 427 wrote: It's a Searles Spiral. I'm not sure where the idea comes from that the r/w is a simple curve. I hear it perpetuated a lot, but have never seen a source that backs it up. If anyone has one, I'd sure like to see it.
The Searles Spiral is a series of compound simple curves that can be calculated, plotted and staked out with all necessary precision. I find that they fit really well with the railroads I've retraced. Those old railroad surveyors really new what they were doing.JBS
I've worked quite a few railroad Right of Way jobs and I've never seen a spiral on a right of way curve. In fact the center-line track is never centered when going through the curve. On railroad plats that I've worked on they always show two curve data, a simple curve for the right of way and another set of curve data for the spiral for the center-line tracks. The plats I've worked on are from the 1880's to early 1900's.
This general discussion is a prime example of WHY each State issues their own "license."
What may be 'true' in Texas, or Maine, or Florida, may or MAY NOT, be 'true' in Arizona, or Idaho, or Wyoming (or any combination of States, Counties, areas, or scenarios...
If I had to venture a GUESS about how many [track] MILES of Railroad ROW curves (both fee [grant] and easement) in Utah are subject to "spiraled ROW/Easement curves," I would put the spiraled possibility pretty close to 50%.
One has to understand the history of Railroad development in Utah (which is probably similar to most of the Inter-mountain States), and avoid making BLANKET Statements that oversimplify the issue. Words like ALWAYS and NEVER, have no business in these types of discussions. What may be true on one Railroad, may NOT be true on another, even though they run nominally parallel to each other only a few hundred feet apart (and are of similar vintage). Just because Curve_A/Railroad_A is not spiraled, doe NOT mean that Curve_B/Railroad_A is NOT (it might be).
As has been pointed out above, you MUST dig out the Entitlement Document(s) pertaining to the specific "CURVE" that you are dealing with. Anything less is sub-standard practice (at best). Granted...some of these documents are a stinker to find, and are often somewhat ambiguous, BUT that's what we get paid for (right?)
What does the Entitlement Document(s) SAY?
What does the physical evidence on the ground TELL YOU?
What have the Courts had to say on the matter?
As always...IT DEPENDS
Loyal
Missouri - I've also retraced many miles of railroads. Some are simple curved and some are spiraled and some are both simple on the right of way and spiraled on the centerline. It seems to depend upon the age of the railroad line and the particular company at the time. The example I gave above is a specific example of a spiraled right of way and centerline.
JBStahl, post: 343774, member: 427 wrote: The deeds for the Salt Lake and Utah railroad I was retracing were from 1913. Here's an example of one of the deed descriptions:
[INDENT]"Commencing at a point where the center line of the Salt Lake and Utah Railroad Company, as now surveyed, intersects the west line of section ... at Engineer's Station 464+90 ... north along the west boundary of section ... 143.1 feet to a point 100 feet distant from and at right angles to said center line; thence south 44å¡19' east and parallel with said center line, a distance of 930.1 feet, more or less, thence southeasterly along the line of a 6å¡ spiraled curve to the right, and parallel with said center line a distance of 949.4 feet; thence south 0å¡39' west 251.2 feet; thence southeasterly along the line of a 6å¡30' spiraled curve to the left, 1109.5 feet, thence south 57å¡13' east and parallel with said center line a distance of 545.2 feet, more or less, to a point on the south line of said lot no. 4; thence West along said sough boundary line a distance of 369.4 feet, crossing said center line at Engineer's Station 429+10, to a point 100 feet distant from and at right angles to said center line; thence north 57å¡13' west and parallel with said center line a distance of 334.6 feet more or less; thence northwesterly along the line of a 6å¡30' spiraled curve and parallel with said center line a distance of 251.2 feet; thence northwesterly along the line of a 6å¡ spiraled curve and parallel with said center line a distance of 949.4 feet; thence north 44å¡19' west and parallel with said center line a distance of 829.9 feet, more or less to a point on the west boundary line of said section ... thence north along said west boundary line 143.1 feet to place of beginning."[/INDENT]
I still had to have the eval maps to get the real centerline data to fill in the unknown blanks left by the legal description. The eval map gave the information for the spiral and curve centerline stationing as well as definitions for the spiral lengths and deltas, central curve deltas and spiral chord definitions such as 8x25', 7x27', 12x30' etc.
