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Protection in the woods

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(@john-putnam)
Posts: 2150
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Years ago in the fiber optic heyday I worked solo on a remote stretch of line running across the Blue Mnts and then down to Ontario, OR. At the start of the project they recommended carrying. I kind of blew it off until I ran into one of the ranchers. He was shocked that I was not carrying. I've been shooting since I was big enough to hold my 22 and I to know that a pistol is at best good at short range. Instead of packing a large caliber pistol I went for this tiny little Beretta 22 long rifle stinger purse job. Make one hell of a bang and should scare anything off that I could stop with at larger hand gun. The nice thing is that it is small and light. Actually the local gun shop owner recommended it. For those times when I've worked in SE AK or places with bigger bears I carry a short barreled 12 gauge. The first shell is shot just to make some noise followed by slugs.

 
Posted : 05/10/2017 5:43 pm
(@jkinak)
Posts: 378
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LRDay, post: 449752, member: 571 wrote: From what I've read bear spray not to effective on black bears, just makes them mad, two women killed in Alaska this year using bear spray.

I'm not sure what incident(s) you are referring to but there are lots of encounters in AK where bear spray has effectively driven the bear away.

I've had the good fortune to never have a bear charge. I've been through bear defense training and have many months in the woods. Learn To Return is a firm in Anchorage AK that provides bear guard and bear aware training and certification. Their courses cover both spray and firearms - you get class time and range time. The #1 thing is to be able to access and deploy whatever defense mechanism you carry. This has to happen very quickly - the speed of the attack is a common thread in victim interviews.

Spray has the advantage of not requiring a direct hit. It also is non-lethal so you avoid a bunch of paperwork proving that you shot in defense of life - and you don't have to submit "the hide, with claws attached, and the skull to ADF&G." It has the disadvantage of not working in conditions where the wind is blowing in your face or in high winds. And you have to patient - you can only deploy from a short distance - which is probably a good thing as most charges are bluffs.

Guns have the advantage of working just fine in the wind. I'd never shoot a bear (not even a small black bear) with a .410 - you'd only wound it and it would either attack or start crying like a wounded baby - I'm not a fan of either. The thing with guns is that a charging bear has a very small kill zone - below the skull and in the center of the chest - that's a really small area on a moving target - you better practice a lot and get your weapon out quickly and you better be "in the zone". Have you ever seen how thick and pointed a bear skull is - bullets just deflect when the nose is pointed at you (perhaps a direct nose shot would stop the bear - that would be a lucky shot). The other problem is that guns are heavy and I've seen lots of people quit carrying them or put them in their pack where they won't help anybody.

At the end of the day - it's your call. I used to always carry a .44 in a shoulder holster when surveying in the bush - it made me stronger. After all the training and reading news articles over the years - I'm going with bear spray in a chest holster - light, easy to deploy, effective in most situations. I mostly agree with John

John Putnam, post: 449812, member: 1188 wrote: For those times when I've worked in SE AK or places with bigger bears I carry a short barreled 12 gauge. The first shell is shot just to make some noise followed by slugs.

Given how quickly bears attack, I now load all slugs if I'm carrying a shotgun.

 
Posted : 05/10/2017 6:07 pm
(@thebionicman)
Posts: 4437
Customer
 

JKinAK, post: 449814, member: 7219 wrote: I'm not sure what incident(s) you are referring to but there are lots of encounters in AK where bear spray has effectively driven the bear away.

I've had the good fortune to never have a bear charge. I've been through bear defense training and have many months in the woods. Learn To Return is a firm in Anchorage AK that provides bear guard and bear aware training and certification. Their courses cover both spray and firearms - you get class time and range time. The #1 thing is to be able to access and deploy whatever defense mechanism you carry. This has to happen very quickly - the speed of the attack is a common thread in victim interviews. Spray has the advantage of not requiring a direct hit. It also is non-lethal so you avoid a bunch of paperwork proving that you shot in defense of life - and you don't have to submit "the hide, with claws attached, and the skull to ADF&G." It has the disadvantage of not working in conditions where the wind is blowing in your face or in high winds. And you have to patient - you can only deploy from a short distance - which is probably a good thing as most charges are bluffs.
Guns have the advantage of working just fine in the wind. I'd never shoot a bear (not even a small black bear) with a .410 - you'd only wound it and it would either attack or start crying like a wounded baby - I'm not a fan of either. The thing with guns is that a charging bear has a very small kill zone - below the skull and in the center of the chest - that's a really small area on a moving target - you better practice a lot and get your weapon out quickly and you better be "in the zone". Have you ever seen how thick and pointed a bear skull is - bullets just deflect when the nose is pointed at you (perhaps a direct nose shot would stop the bear - that would be a lucky shot). The other problem is that guns are heavy and I've seen lots of people quit carrying them or put them in their pack where they won't help anybody.

At the end of the day - it's your call. I used to always carry a .44 in a shoulder holster when surveying in the bush - it made me stronger. After all the training and reading news articles over the years - I'm going with bear spray in a chest holster - light, easy to deploy, effective in most situations. I mostly agree with John Given how quickly bears attack, I now load all slugs if I'm carrying a shotgun.

Even here where the bears are small you are correct. I was charged in 99 while bowhunting. The bear gave me no shot with the bow. I dropped the bow and pulled my knife. Put that under 'futile actions to keep yourself busy while dying'. Lucky for me the bear ran right on by. Probably wasnt the blade of the old timer that scared him off.
Whatever you carry, make it accessable and dont waste time with warning shots. Get down to business or become bear poop..

 
Posted : 05/10/2017 6:16 pm
(@sirveyr)
Posts: 128
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When I'm in the woods of Detroit, and everywhere else for that matter, I carry a Glock 19 or 43 appendix IWB. Revolvers are dumb.

 
Posted : 05/10/2017 6:21 pm
(@williwaw)
Posts: 3321
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JKinAK, post: 449814, member: 7219 wrote: I'm not sure what incident(s) you are referring to but there are lots of encounters in AK where bear spray has effectively driven the bear away.

I've had the good fortune to never have a bear charge. I've been through bear defense training and have many months in the woods. Learn To Return is a firm in Anchorage AK that provides bear guard and bear aware training and certification. Their courses cover both spray and firearms - you get class time and range time. The #1 thing is to be able to access and deploy whatever defense mechanism you carry. This has to happen very quickly - the speed of the attack is a common thread in victim interviews.

Spray has the advantage of not requiring a direct hit. It also is non-lethal so you avoid a bunch of paperwork proving that you shot in defense of life - and you don't have to submit "the hide, with claws attached, and the skull to ADF&G." It has the disadvantage of not working in conditions where the wind is blowing in your face or in high winds. And you have to patient - you can only deploy from a short distance - which is probably a good thing as most charges are bluffs.

Guns have the advantage of working just fine in the wind. I'd never shoot a bear (not even a small black bear) with a .410 - you'd only wound it and it would either attack or start crying like a wounded baby - I'm not a fan of either. The thing with guns is that a charging bear has a very small kill zone - below the skull and in the center of the chest - that's a really small area on a moving target - you better practice a lot and get your weapon out quickly and you better be "in the zone". Have you ever seen how thick and pointed a bear skull is - bullets just deflect when the nose is pointed at you (perhaps a direct nose shot would stop the bear - that would be a lucky shot). The other problem is that guns are heavy and I've seen lots of people quit carrying them or put them in their pack where they won't help anybody.

At the end of the day - it's your call. I used to always carry a .44 in a shoulder holster when surveying in the bush - it made me stronger. After all the training and reading news articles over the years - I'm going with bear spray in a chest holster - light, easy to deploy, effective in most situations. I mostly agree with John Given how quickly bears attack, I now load all slugs if I'm carrying a shotgun.

You bring up excellent points and bear spray is my first choice hands down. If somebody I'm with is getting mauled I'm going to hesitate using a firearm for fear of hitting the wrong target, and this is most likely the best chance I'll get to pepper spray my buddy and have him thank me later. I'm still keeping the backup though.

 
Posted : 05/10/2017 6:35 pm
(@ridge)
Posts: 2702
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Topic starter
 

JKinAK, post: 449814, member: 7219 wrote: I'm not sure what incident(s) you are referring to but there are lots of encounters in AK where bear spray has effectively driven the bear away.

I've had the good fortune to never have a bear charge. I've been through bear defense training and have many months in the woods. Learn To Return is a firm in Anchorage AK that provides bear guard and bear aware training and certification. Their courses cover both spray and firearms - you get class time and range time. The #1 thing is to be able to access and deploy whatever defense mechanism you carry. This has to happen very quickly - the speed of the attack is a common thread in victim interviews.

Spray has the advantage of not requiring a direct hit. It also is non-lethal so you avoid a bunch of paperwork proving that you shot in defense of life - and you don't have to submit "the hide, with claws attached, and the skull to ADF&G." It has the disadvantage of not working in conditions where the wind is blowing in your face or in high winds. And you have to patient - you can only deploy from a short distance - which is probably a good thing as most charges are bluffs.

Guns have the advantage of working just fine in the wind. I'd never shoot a bear (not even a small black bear) with a .410 - you'd only wound it and it would either attack or start crying like a wounded baby - I'm not a fan of either. The thing with guns is that a charging bear has a very small kill zone - below the skull and in the center of the chest - that's a really small area on a moving target - you better practice a lot and get your weapon out quickly and you better be "in the zone". Have you ever seen how thick and pointed a bear skull is - bullets just deflect when the nose is pointed at you (perhaps a direct nose shot would stop the bear - that would be a lucky shot). The other problem is that guns are heavy and I've seen lots of people quit carrying them or put them in their pack where they won't help anybody.

At the end of the day - it's your call. I used to always carry a .44 in a shoulder holster when surveying in the bush - it made me stronger. After all the training and reading news articles over the years - I'm going with bear spray in a chest holster - light, easy to deploy, effective in most situations. I mostly agree with John Given how quickly bears attack, I now load all slugs if I'm carrying a shotgun.

News report says bear spray wasn't effective. Don't know how accurate the news is. Our local bear guy says bear spray not real effective on Black Bears. Hope I never have to actually find out.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/06/23/black-bear-hyper-aggressive-attack-two-women-alaska/422207001/

 
Posted : 05/10/2017 6:42 pm
(@thebionicman)
Posts: 4437
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sirveyr, post: 449818, member: 6680 wrote: When I'm in the woods of Detroit, and everywhere else for that matter, I carry a Glock 19 or 43 appendix IWB. Revolvers are dumb.

Revolvers have a place at the table. It just depends on the need. The versatile and large loads for revolvers make them a great choice in the woods.

 
Posted : 05/10/2017 6:50 pm
(@shawn-billings)
Posts: 2689
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Big fan of 357. I'd carry a 10mm, but I like having shot shells for snakes, and they aren't reliable in my opinion in autos. In my parts the 357 is the most powerful enough handgun in the world. Probably would feel differently in big bear country.

 
Posted : 05/10/2017 7:22 pm
(@mack00079)
Posts: 14
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S&W governor. First two #4 for snake taming. Second two .45LC. If I have to get to the third set itƒ??s hornady personal protection .410. It has a hollow point slug and two 30 cal balls. Of course if that doesnƒ??t do it for you they make specialty rounds that have ball and chain. Or disks. Or fire. Pick your poison so to speak. Fire may do a good deterrent for the first shot.

 
Posted : 05/10/2017 9:02 pm
(@just-a-surveyor)
Posts: 1945
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I don't know about the Judge for bears or mountain lions. I'm sure it would be great for people which is exactly what it was designed for but dangerous animals are a different story.

I would want more power. The Ruger sp101 is good. I carry a 45 but any gun is a good gun when you don't have one. I would recommend something more powerful. Taurus makes some inexpensive large caliber revolvers. I think one is called the Raging Bull.

 
Posted : 06/10/2017 1:54 am
(@monte)
Posts: 857
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I am rarely in bear country, and if I am, I have a .30-.30 rifle handy. (same if I know I'll be in feral hog country) But for every day carry, I keep either a 1911 in .45acp with me for around town, or a .357mag with a hollow point, followed by a #4 CCI shot shell, for out in the boonies. It has been a set up that has worked for me for quite awhile now. I do own a judge, but just cant find the ammo combination I am comfortable with.

 
Posted : 06/10/2017 5:43 am
(@flga-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2)
Posts: 7403
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Monte, post: 449876, member: 11913 wrote: I do own a judge, but just cant find the ammo combination I am comfortable with.

I have found short barreled revolvers are only good for 10 feet with respect to accuracy. That's too damned close for me.
So now I carry (when needed) a Ruger Sr9 with a 17 round clip loaded with HV 129gr hollow points.


😎

 
Posted : 06/10/2017 6:24 am
(@john-putnam)
Posts: 2150
Customer
 

The little Beretta I mentioned has a barrel that is about 2 times the length of the shell. I used to be a pretty good shot, I shot in competition when I was a lot younger, but I can't hit an empty beer can at 6 feet with this thing. But it does make a hell of a lot of noise.

 
Posted : 06/10/2017 6:56 am
(@andy-j)
Posts: 3121
 

SPMPLS, post: 449756, member: 11785 wrote: I shot a 300 lb. male black bear in self defense in 2015. I used a 12 gauge with a 3" load that had a slug and 00 buck in it. He was about 30' away and moving towards me. This was after running him off 3 times earlier, including with a warning round. I wouldn't have wanted to have been any closer when I made the decision. Not being a proficient handgun user (at least not in a life or death situation) I was glad I had a shotgun. Hit him in the left shoulder and he went down very quickly after cartwheeling about 40' and bellowing something awful. Ironically, I had researched where to shoot one just months before, and almost everything I read said "not the head" and recommended the shoulder. It worked, but I didn't sleep a wink that night.

never had to fire at a bear in Alaska, but was glad they mostly left us alone. We had to practice with a shotgun and always aim for the shoulders. Their skulls are thick and sloped so a bullet often glances off . Damn, though, 30 feet is too close ! glad you got a good shot off.

 
Posted : 06/10/2017 7:08 am
(@sjc1989)
Posts: 514
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A client of mine has the 'Taurus Judge' and it's huge enough I would see myself leaving it behind way too often. Whatever you buy it isn't any good the day you decide it's too un-handy to carry and leave it in the truck.

If I was in bear country it would be and .44 cal. compact always on me, because that would be an easy carry option. In locations where my spidey sense told me there's real danger out there I would have a short barreled 12ga. with buck shot and slugs nearby.

I know I get tired much easier that 20 years ago, and am all about minimum exertion to create max results. That Judge would be poking and pinching me every time I bent over.

Steve

 
Posted : 06/10/2017 7:55 am
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