Proper Methodology>MA> jud
I had a lawyer call me some time ago after a closing. The client wanted a mortgage plot plan.
One was produced at the closing and their client said, "that's not the right property." Apparently the plan was of the next door neighbors lot. The "surveyor" did the wrong lot. The bank officer didn't care so long as that slot was filled in the lenders folder.
I did a survey etc...
I fail to see what is either 'lawful' or 'necessary' for this type of practice.
One of the local banks uses "owner affidavits" to certify to "no change" in the property. I fail to see a value to this, in lieu of a survey. There is more than an appearance of conflict in my opinion.
I will work on changing the law, although there are competing interests to pursue regarding land surveying in MA.
There is a VERY LIMITED case for doing something like this. It would have to be a case of very rugged terrain with zero private improvements except for a house/garage/toolshed on the property being mortgaged. Having two known points that control the location of the perimeter of the tract is common for quicky MTI or ILC type jobs. If the hand-held GPS claims to be plus or minus something like 10 feet and the improvements are in the center of a square, forty-acre tract, then you could state with certainty that they do not cross a property line. That's about all you could be certain about, however. The comment about no other improvements anywhere close to the property is vital to clarify that no one else has a structure crossing onto the property.
State law on MTI's and ILC's dictates that the document prepared includes a statement that it is not a survey and is subject to any concerns that would be found if a boundary survey were to be conducted in the future. No true boundaries are required.
A typical example is an older home on a 60 x 150 rectangular lot in a subdivision laid out within the past 50 years. Lot dimensions should be very close to record. Say you have the two block corners on the client's side of the block and the sidelines are platted as parallel to the front and back lines. A rectangular house 24 x 36 exists with the narrow side toward the front line. You discover the evidence (simple wire fences, etc.) along the sidelines conform closely to the record distance from the block corners found. The house is set back 40 feet from the front line and there is very close to 18 feet of space between the sidelines and each side of the house. Adjacent houses are located similarly on their lots, suggesting virtually no chance of encroaching over the property line. What the lender really wants to know is if their is, in fact, a house of a size corresponding to the one listed in their appraiser's report setting on the tract on the date you certify your inspection. No other assurances are involved. That is the bottom line.
Proper Methodology>MA> jud
A title office does not care if there is a survey or not. They charge a nominal fee for the paperwork preparation of a "no change" and take the owner at their word.
What that means for the buyer is that they are paying for a title policy that is not effective until an actual survey has been made. Should a problem arise before a survey is made, the owner has no insurance coverage because no survey was made. The claim will be denied immediately.
The "mortgage survey" began as proof for the bank to have someone to certify that all the improvements they are financing are on that property.
It has evolved into a bonafied complete survey for any cause because of the fact that when a surveyor attaches their signature and seal to a document and to attest that certain things meet requirements of the state, the area and to protect the public interests and that they have been to the site and what is on the ground is near exactly as shown on the plat, within allowable tolerance.
:plumbbob:
"No true boundaries are required."
Then a licensed professional should not be signing the document. Perhaps the rules for states should be reviewed to insure their view of the land surveying profession is in compliance with at least the minimum definition of land surveying.
Maybe I really don't understand the definition...would someone be kind enough to share?
Standard for MTI in KS
MINIMUM STANDARDS FOR
MORTGAGEE TITLE INSPECTIONS (MTIs)
A licensed land surveyor in the State of Kansas shall not provide to any party a mortgagee title
inspection unless in possession of a work order signed by the borrower indicating that they have been advised of the different types of services available and the scope of each of these services. (See the attached recommended work order.) This work order may be changed to fit the surveyor's or the client's particular needs, except that the three services shown may only be expanded to include more services and the signature statement must remain unchanged.
FIELD PROCEDURES
Professional notes shall be taken on all MTIs and kept as part of the surveyor's permanent record.
A diligent search for existing control and/or boundary evidence shall be made by field crews. The highest order of existing control and/or boundary evidence available shall be used to perform the MTI. The surveyor must obtain sufficient evidence relating to the property boundary to demonstrate general knowledge of the given area.
DRAFTING
A sketch or diagram of the parcel shall be used in support of the certificate, and the following
minimum standards will be used:
a) Property lines with the boundary dimensions from the deed description or plat shall be shown.
b) Major improvements (permanent structures) shall be shown with dimensions and
descriptions (e.g., residences, garages, outbuildings with foundations, in-ground pools).
c) Major improvement locations shall be shown with dimensions to the nearest property
lines with a minimum of three dimensions shown for normal lots, and shall be sufficient
to locate the structure (offsets shall be shown perpendicular to straight property lines and
radially to curved property lines). The level of certainty of these dimensions, based on the
evidence found in the field and not as a standard note shall be shown in parenthesis after
each dimension or by means of a general note. Example: 12.5' (± 0.5’), or Front offsets: ±
0.3’, Side offsets: ± 0.4’).
d) Means of access and platted setback lines shall be shown graphically and labeled.
e) Platted and apparent easements shall be shown and labeled. State the source of record
easement information, if other than platted (e.g., miscellaneous book and page of
recording. If the information was obtained from a title company, state which title
company and the commitment number).
f) The posted address shall be shown, if not posted, so state.
g) A north arrow shall be shown.
h) Encroachments shall be noted and shown in an obvious manner. When the level of
certainty of dimensions to possible encroachments are not precise enough for a positive
determination, a boundary survey shall be recommended.
i) The following caption shall appear prominently on the sketch:
MORTGAGEE TITLE INSPECTION
(this does not constitute a boundary survey)
j) If the certification and the sketch are on more than one sheet of paper it shall be so indicated (e.g., Page 1 of 2, Page 2 of2).
CERTIFICATION
A mortgagee title inspection shall only refer to performing an inspection of the property and
shall not indicate the performance of a survey in any part of the certification.
The certification shall contain the name, address, and the telephone number of the surveyor
responsible for the inspection, in addition to the following:
1) A statement that the inspection was either conducted by the land surveyor or that the
inspection was made under his or her direct supervision. The date the inspection was made and the legal description of the property inspected.
2) A statement that the accompanying sketch is a true representation of the conditions
that were found at the time of the inspection and that the inspection was prepared for
mortgagee title insurance only, and that the document does not constitute a boundary
survey and is subject to any inaccuracies that a subsequent boundary survey may
disclose. It shall state the fact that no property corners were set, and that the information
shown on the sketch should not be used to establish any fence, structure or other
improvements. It shall be stated that the linear or angular values shown on the sketch, if
any, are based on record or deed information and have not been verified unless noted.
Include notification that the land surveyor is not extending a warranty to the present or
future owners or occupants.
3) a) All copies of the MTI delivered to the client shall be signed and dated by the surveyor in blue ink. The signature and date shall be placed across the surveyor's seal.
b) The surveyor shall make a reasonable effort to discourage the unauthorized copying
and reuse of all MTI's.
RECORDS
The surveyor shall perform adequate research, maintain sufficient recorded documentation, and provide the field crews with information necessary to determine the property dimensions in the field.
WORK ORDER
Borrower: Date:
Lender: Ordered By:
Common Address:
Legal description:
Title Commitment being prepared by:
Is Flood Zone Verification required? Yes_________ No_________
Does the property have: Locked Gates: _________ Security System: ___________ Animals to be locked-up: _________
Deliver ____ copies to: ________________________________________________________________________________
Anticipated closing date: _________________ Need by date: ______________________
Is estimate of fee required prior to service? Yes__________ No____________
A Mortgagee Title Inspection can only be provided if this work order is signed by the purchaser or mortgagor of the property to be inspected, pursuant to Article 66-12-1 of the Rules and Regulations of the Kansas State Board of Technical Professions.
Please read carefully and indicate the type of service you wish to order.
______Mortgagee Title Inspection: The sole purpose of this inspection is to obtain mortgagee title insurance. This is the minimum service that your lender requires for closing your loan. It is a location of improvements and cursory check for violations or encroachments onto or from the subject property based on existing but not confirmed evidence. This does not constitute a boundary survey and is subject to any inaccuracies that a subsequent boundary survey may disclose. No property corners will be set and it should not be used or relied upon for the establishment of any fence, structure or other improvement. No warranty of any kind is extended therein to the present or future owner or occupant.
______Boundary Survey and Improvement Location: A boundary survey of the subject
property will be made and the property corners will be located and verified or reset. The improvements on the property will be located and a check for violations or encroachments onto or from the subject property will be made. This survey can be used by the property owner for the construction of a fence, structure or other improvement.
_____ALTA (American Land Title Association) Survey: This is the most comprehensive type of survey and improvement location. It covers all the aspects of the boundary survey and improvement location and identification of any additional evidence of possession or use which could be adverse to the interests of the purchaser. This type of survey is normally only performed on commerical property because of the expense involved.
I (We), the undersigned borrower(s), have read, understand and have indicated the type of service to be performed.
Signature _______________________________________________ (Signature)
Date ____________________________________________________ (Date)
Notice: The survey company reserves the right to terminate work on a Mortgagee Title Inspection, if it determines that meaningful results cannot be expected from this type of service. The suitability of any particular property as the subject for a Mortgagee Title Inspection may not be determinable until after work is in progress. The survey company assumes no liability for delays resulting from weather or other factors beyond their reasonable control.
The ILC is even simpler
The Improvement Location Certificate is a very common request that is even simpler. All the lender really wants is the apparent location of the primary structure(s) involved in the collateral offered by the borrower. No worry about easements, access, minor structures of minimal value, etc.
There is another document that land surveyors can prepare in even more bizarre situations. This is a No Start Certificate. All it amounts to is that a disinterested third party (you, Mr. Licensed Land Surveyor) has been on the property being mortgaged on the date certified and saw no visible evidence of work having been done or materials setting on-site that are a part of the new construction project. No boundary work of any kind other than knowing you are on the correct tract. You are considered to be a "safe" and "knowledgeable" person who would recognize construction materials and evidence of new construction.
Standard for MTI in KS
"A mortgagee title inspection shall only refer to performing an inspection of the property and
shall not indicate the performance of a survey in any part of the certification."
I would have to ask why a professional land surveyor would sign a doc that contradicts the whole reason they are licensed. I would think that this is something that is in more line with an appraisal.
I didn't realize that. Thanks for sharing.
Interesting read.
I see questions posted here regarding mortgage surveys and am constantly confused and baffled how these are even accomplished under the guise of surveying. Up in this neck of the woods there is no such thing as a mortgage survey, if you want your property surveyed call me. If you want your property traversed with a handheld gps unit....don't call. I can't remotely think of a situation under any professional statutes where that would be deemed acceptabe, nor should it be acceptable to any professional surveyor.
Standard for MTI in KS
> "A mortgagee title inspection shall only refer to performing an inspection of the property and
> shall not indicate the performance of a survey in any part of the certification."
>
> I would have to ask why a professional land surveyor would sign a doc that contradicts the whole reason they are licensed. I would think that this is something that is in more line with an appraisal.
>
> I didn't realize that. Thanks for sharing.
>
> Interesting read.
I agree 100%. I am surprised that more land surveyors haven't been taken to task on these fiascos. You're certifying to whatever it is by virtue of your signature and seal. I can just imagine a land owner saying "what do you mean I can't rely on it, I have a signature and seal". And "The certification is from a licensed surveyor, not some guy down the street. Doesn't he know where the boundaries are?"
If I had my plumbing looked at by a licensed plumber, or my foundation looked at by a structural engineer, I would expect a higher and better level of certification than if I had it looked at by the neighbor next door.
> A survey is a survey...no such thing as a "Mortgage Survey".
That is not true in every state. In Alabama, Mortgage Survey is one of the defined types of surveys.
Stephen
Standard for MTI in KS
This is in response to Just Mapit, WA - ID, Mark Chain, and others.
I've never understood the intellectual stubborness displayed by the land surveying community when it comes to mortgage surveys. While I completely get it that they aren't for everyone, and that, like me, you may have no interest in doing them, why show such disdain for what is clearly a useful product for some entity, namely the banks. The lending banks have obviously deemed these surveys or inspections worthy of the time and expense it takes to do them.
The bank is out to protect it's business interests. For a mortgage loan, that interest is basically the house and the lot it sits upon. They need to know that, a) there is a house, and b) it sits on its' attached lot. They need someone to certify to those facts for them. Who do you expect them to get to do that for them? Why do you have a problem with them thinking of the land surveying community to fill that need for them? I would think we would be happy that they thought of us. The product they need is not a boundary survey. Whether the mortagee's fence protrudes onto a neighbors property or vice versa is not a problem for them. It doesn't endanger their investment. They would just say to the owners, "tear the fence down and build a new one", if they bothered to say anything at all. But if the house encroached onto anothers lot, well, their investment is in danger, so that is a concern for them.
Again, I don't do them myself. But I have no quarrel with those among us who do. It is a demand to be supplied. To deny that is just unenlightened.
Stephen
PS, no one performs them with handheld GPS, nor should they.
What is the proper way to cuss?
What is the right way to crash a car?
What is the correct way to smash a finger?
Answer these, and then I'll tell you how to survey with a handheld GPS!!!
🙂
N
Standard for MTI in KS
For me, it goes back to the definition of land surveying in your particular state(s). In Idaho you CANNOT even locate a pin or make any representation regarding the pin/corner location for ANYONE without filing and completing a full blown boundary survey. This is the mentality that we have here. From this to a mortgage survey seems like going from a bulding built of legos to a skyscrpaper, there is and should not be any comparision. Seeing posts about surveyors basically doing drive by surveys is not surveying.
I see it as a cheap way out of getting an actual survey and it reduces the public's perception of land surveying. I highly doubt that most land owners in states that have mortgage surveys realize that they are not getting a boundary survey (even though i'm sure it says this in the fine print). This does nothing to improve our already-almost-classified-as-a-contractor status in the public eye and is not land surveying.
Standard for MTI in KS
Stephen,
No disdain here. Define your version of a land survey. Perhaps then, by your response, the problem of intellectual stubbornness can be clarified and put to rest.
I stated my opinion...you made yours. We disagree. You know as well as I do we can all disagree....it's ok as far as that goes.
So give your definition of land surveying. Compare it to the requirements posted above and then tell me if your opinion of a "Mortgage Survey" is land surveying.
Standard for MTI in KS
Feeding your face is not land surveying either, but when there is the need, you do it. One thing I have learned is that all surveying is not done the Oregon way, many similarity's but lots of differences also. Recording requirement is one difference and I had a hard time with copyright law having any value, some find it necessary. OK there are differences, that is fine and from what I see of federal control of anything, I will not support a nationwide set of surveying laws. If the bankers get stung a few times there will be a lobby effort getting mortgage surveys authorized at the state level where they are now not recognized, guess who will be doing them.
jud
Standard for MTI in KS
> >
> So give your definition of land surveying. Compare it to the requirements posted above and then tell me if your opinion of a "Mortgage Survey" is land surveying.
My definition of land surveying is showing people what they own. We both know that there is a lot more to it than that, but that is the simplest definition that I have and it is one that I like. And we both know that therefore I personally must not consider mortgage surveying to be land surveying, which in point of fact I don't. But so what? My point is that I don't hold a grudge against the product nor against those that produce them. They are useful to the banks or else they wouldn't exist. I currently make my money by assisting with helicopter-based LiDAR mapping. That's not land surveying either in most states. Do you begrudge me doing that?
Further, the great State of Alabama DOES consider mortgage surveys to be land surveying. As I live in and am licensed in Alabama, I accept that.
Stephen
Standard for MTI in KS
>>
> I see it as a cheap way out of getting an actual survey and it reduces the public's perception of land surveying. I highly doubt that most land owners in states that have mortgage surveys realize that they are not getting a boundary survey (even though i'm sure it says this in the fine print). This does nothing to improve our already-almost-classified-as-a-contractor status in the public eye and is not land surveying.
I appreciate your comments but I can't agree. You say it is a cheap way out of getting an actual survey. I tried to make it clear that the persons ordering the mortgage survey or inspection don't want or need an actual survey, meaning a property boundary survey.
I also doubt that mortgage surveys reduces the public's perception of land surveying. We do have one of the biggest image problems imagineable, but I wouldn't lay that at the feet of mortgage surveys. That is a problem that just pervades the industry at so many levels.
I do agree with you however about the fine print comment. These products should have "THIS IS NOT A PROPERTY BOUNDARY SURVEY" in big, bold letters placed prominently on them.
Stephen
Standard for MTI in KS
"My point is that I don't hold a grudge against the product nor against those that produce them."
"..Do you begrudge me doing that"
It's not about a grudge or a begrudge. I guess you answered my question.
If that's what you think than so be it. That's cool with me.
have a good one!:good:
Proper Methodology, maybe sometimes
Back in the old days when I did mortgage surveys in MI I'd determine whatever I needed to determine by whatever method applied. Handleld GPS, pacing, foresters hip chain, paving contractor wheels, clocking with odometer, counting houses down the block, building permits, you name it.
As long as I knew I was on the correct property and I thought there "may" be a problem, there was ALWAYS a big note stating that a complete boundary survey must be completed to verify anything on this sketch.
Sometimes they got them, sometimes the title company excepted the survey requirement. The public was NOT protected, but the bank got what they asked for.
I sure don't miss them, but you sure could make a $hyteload of money if you wanted to sleep with the devil lenders, realtors, & title co's.