Poll for surveyors...

> good morning,
> i have been contemplating the efficacy of the following, and i am interested in other opinions.
>
> considering the hierarchy of construction of boundary surveys, in maryland, it is as follows:
> 1 calls to natural markers. tree,stream,stone,etc
> 2 calls to artificial markers. pipe, road, stake, etc.
> 3 direction
> 4 distance
> 5 area
>
> some use linear regression to establish row line. others take an approach of, (how can i describe it?), calls to markers first, then an evaluation of direction and distance, subsequent.
>
> i find the second approach is more the intent, but the linear regression is possibly more mathematically sound.
>
> another twist, since i work for a dep't of transportation, does the fact that we work to retrace row lines, primarily, change your own opinion?
>
> thanks in advance for your feedback

Well, I think it's a nice mix of all of what you've written. For me, where I'm working on an un-monumented ROW or an abandoned Railroad where the tracks are gone, I have no problem using regression to find the best fit. Carlson makes it easy, but it's really not that big of a deal to do longhand either.

On monumented ROW's, the original monuments hold, end of story. Either the other corners are in the ROW or the don't make it, or they encroach on the ROW. Only in rare cases is the location of the senior okay from the junior. It doesn't mean that you can't use them to look for the senior, just that your location not be based on them alone.

As usual, it depends.

I don't work in Maryland but for me there are a few rules missing between 2 and 3, and I usually consider a well established road to fall into category #1.

I also work with the local DOT on ROW projects and consider the math to be subservient to the bounds.

When writing a legal for a ROW it is critical to call the bounded line of each passing owner (that's rule #3 for me). Also, to try to minimize any conflicts that will come up. As an example, if I running a strip legal west to east and come to a Section line called as a deed line then continue 40 feet east and cross a fence line long used as the property line, I will write the strip for the west owner to the fence and for the east owner to the section line. This of course creates an overlap but it also picks up any ownership claim that might come up.

That's just one example of what can come up while writing or retracing ROW's. The math is always the least important-the best legals can contain no math at all. That isn't to say ignore the math, it is important and as a surveyor you are the expert, but without fitting the ROW over the quilt of ownership the math becomes pointless.

Following the Footsteps

The thing to keep uppermost in mind is that the real object of the retracement survey is to follow the lines as laid down by a prior survey, the original survey being typically the one of interest.

The ordinary priority of calls began as simply a ranking of the different elements of the descriptions that had been created from surveys, attempting to identify those elements that are apt to be most reliable and least subject to error.

If you had, say, the field book of the surveyor who had originally established a line and could by means of information in that record identify with some certainty the locations in which he had made corners and run lines, I assume that in Maryland that would be the method that would a court would want to use since the object of the exercise is to follow the footsteps of that surveyor.

Following the Footsteps

"""
> If you had, say, the field book of the surveyor who had originally established a line and could by means of information in that record identify with some certainty the locations in which he had made corners and run lines, I assume that in Maryland that would be the method that would a court would want to use since the object of the exercise is to follow the footsteps of that surveyor.
"""

yes, kent, thanks. problem is md is an 'option to record' state. it is not often we can get our mitts on someone else's field notes. unfortunate. we can get the older plats and deeds, etc, of course

Following the Footsteps

> yes, kent, thanks. problem is md is an 'option to record' state. it is not often we can get our mitts on someone else's field notes. unfortunate. we can get the older plats and deeds, etc, of course

Didn't the Maryland Highway Department (or whatever the predecessor of the present DOT was called) keep records of its surveys, though?

Following the Footsteps

> > yes, kent, thanks. problem is md is an 'option to record' state. it is not often we can get our mitts on someone else's field notes. unfortunate. we can get the older plats and deeds, etc, of course
>
> Didn't the Maryland Highway Department (or whatever the predecessor of the present DOT was called) keep records of its surveys, though?

md highway dept, also known as SHA does have records. we can get them with relative ease. here's the rub, kent. i work for county d.o.t., this removes me oftentimes from any state work.

in the late fifties through to about the seventies, SHA was gobbling up land, per eisenhower, i believe. the plats from this era are finger paint, to say the least.

will post a sample for your enjoyment

Eddie

I'm not sure if you're aware, but in Texas, hardly anything but the description is recorded. Kent having the field book was from his search of "PRIVATE" records.

I've spent more than a day on more than one occasion calling surveyors asking if they knew the pedigree of a corner that I'd found, not knowing if any of them had even worked in the area.

The capping rule in 1998 made it easier, but there's a helluva lot of iron in the ground from before 1998. TXDOT records are available, but sometimes when length trips. Some are online now, but you don't know if they scanned the latest and greatest or if it differs from the deed.

I had an occasion to retrace a section of State Highway No. 110 in my county. The plans call for a spiral, but the DEED called for a straight line between the ends. Guess which way I went.

Following the Footsteps

I would consider an unmonumented roadway a natural monument even though it is a man made feature. It should fall into category 1. Being unmonumented, the road bed has a tendency to wander over time and behaves more like a riparian boundary.
Even when ROW bounds are found and tied, the ROW does not automatically "bend" to them. For instance, a pair of concrete posts marking a PC are found at 67' from each other although the record ROW is 66'. That pair is used to establish centerline and the 66' ROW offset from there. The ROW gets what it gets. Other adjacent monuments for US surveys, PLSS corners etc are shown with their relationship to the true ROW line.

Kris

> I'm not sure if you're aware, but in Texas, hardly anything but the description is recorded. Kent having the field book was from his search of "PRIVATE" records.
>
> I've spent more than a day on more than one occasion calling surveyors asking if they knew the pedigree of a corner that I'd found, not knowing if any of them had even worked in the area.
>
> The capping rule in 1998 made it easier, but there's a helluva lot of iron in the ground from before 1998. TXDOT records are available, but sometimes when length trips. Some are online now, but you don't know if they scanned the latest and greatest or if it differs from the deed.
>
> I had an occasion to retrace a section of State Highway No. 110 in my county. The plans call for a spiral, but the DEED called for a straight line between the ends. Guess which way I went.""" i suppose you used the tangent quoted in the deed...

i think we're getting away from my original thought. let me clarify.

say we survey a road. measured 10 markers on the front/row and, maybe six in the backyards. we nowadays use linear regression to make a best fit line, based on the ten front marks. used to be that we would check angles between row and side lines (first). does what i am trying to describe make sense?

sadly, we don't often look up other surveyors for their input

Sorry Eddie

But the right-of-way is owned by the state, county, city, feds and cannot (shouldn't) be determined by whether or not a line of rods is within 0.04' or not. The fact that the line of rods is straight as an Indian going to $h!t is irrelevant to the fact that they encroach on the right-of-way by 10.00 feet since the idiot surveyor didn't know about the offset in the right-of-way.

See my point.

Also, I never take a least square of a line of rods to determine anything. Either I'm holding the rods and the angle points thereof, or I'm not.

Once again, it depends.

Sorry Eddie

copy that

Sorry Eddie

Moe

Can you post a link to that snapshot or a larger photo?

Moe

trying some alternatives

Paul

username plato
password plato#
row plat 9755

try either url;
http://plato.mdarchives.state.md.us/msa/stagser/s1500/s1529/cfm/act_advancesearch.cfm?county=mo

or

http://plato.mdarchives.state.md.us/msa/stagser/s1500/s1529/cfm/dsp_unit.cfm?county=mo&qualifier=C&series=2826&unit=339&p_ds_value=1&p_ms_value=0

let me know if this works

Moe

Not much on that map Moe

Moe

yes, state highway was in a mad rush to acquire land fifty years ago. makes for painful resurveys today. a plat like that was going rate for SHA for about twenty years

Following the Footsteps

Tim, I disagree with most of what you said. I suppose that you say the road takes on the dignity of a natural monument based on it's size and the fact that it's hard to lose a road or to not find a road. Perhaps. But, I certainly would not assign it riparian attributes in which slow imperceptible movements cause it to move boundary lines. The boundary lines were created when the road was constructed and are fixed forever.

I don't agree with the basis of your scenario about the R/W monuments. The government entity set them. They deeds created to obtain the R/W reference the R/W plans and the plans (probably) show the monuments. What else is there to it?

Most fundamentaly, I disagree with your basis that the R/W always gets what it gets. I take it that you probably mean the record R/W width. I know of no law that makes a special case for R/W's. How are they different than any other property boundary? The sentiment of the R/W always getting it's record width appears to me to have grown out of giving R/W's their full due in apportioning for lot and block surveys. That's the only scenario in which it's appropriate to do that, not in newly created state and county roads. If the king wants that full R/W width, then he best take the trouble to set the monuments with care.

Stephen

Following the Footsteps

I don't like linear regression.

The purpose of setting monuments is to mark the boundary whether it is a right of way or other type of boundary. It is not an academic exercise to be continually adjusted.

People use monuments, not imaginary lines calculated on a map somewhere.