Laws and Practice vary - what do you do?
Around here we have to sign and seal (every page of) any document (plat, description, etc) that is a result of a land survey. I sign and seal any descriptions I write that I did a land survey on.
Signed, sealed, and certified as follows:
The undersigned hereby states that the metes and bounds description hereon was prepared by myself or under my direct supervision and that it complies with the Minimum Standards of Practice for Metes and Bounds Descriptions as established in Title 9, Subtitle 13, Chapter 6, Section 8 of the Code of Maryland Regulations as enacted and amended.
It is a part of the plat. Signed, sealed, delivered.
Here in Mississippi we can Stamp and Sign the plat as page 1 of 2, 3, or how many pages of the survey. Doing such the description does not have to be Stamp and Sign.
In Florida, I think just about anybody can write a legal description and file it, so it probably doesn't matter. I still prepare sketches of description (a description with sketch) which is signed and sealed. They used to be required (by surveyors anyway, everybody else could do whatever they wanted), but now they are not.
James Fleming, post: 335195, member: 136 wrote: Signed, sealed, and certified as follows:
The undersigned hereby states that the metes and bounds description hereon was prepared by myself or under my direct supervision and that it complies with the Minimum Standards of Practice for Metes and Bounds Descriptions as established in Title 9, Subtitle 13, Chapter 6, Section 8 of the Code of Maryland Regulations as enacted and amended.
We can't get away with that in Oklahoma (merely stating "the undersigned"). The surveyor's name and the date the description was created is a requirement in the body of the description.
In CA, unless it's preliminary, law requires signature and seal. If it is preliminary, law requires it be clearly marked so.
Bow Tie Surveyor, post: 335205, member: 6939 wrote: In Florida, I think just about anybody can write a legal description and file it, so it probably doesn't matter. I still prepare sketches of description (a description with sketch) which is signed and sealed. They used to be required (by surveyors anyway, everybody else could do whatever they wanted), but now they are not.
They may be doing it but according to Florida Statute 472.005 (4)(b) it sure sounds like they aren't supposed unless they are licensed: "The practice of surveying and mapping also includes, but is not limited to, photogrammetric control; the monumentation and remonumentation of property boundaries and subdivisions; the measurement of and preparation of plans showing existing improvements after construction; the layout of proposed improvements; the preparation of descriptions for use in legal instruments of conveyance of real property and property rights; the preparation of subdivision planning maps and record plats, as provided for in chapter 177; the determination of, but not the design of, grades and elevations of roads and land in connection with subdivisions or divisions of land; and the creation and perpetuation of alignments related to maps, record plats, field note records, reports, property descriptions, and plans and drawings that represent them." (emphasis added by me)
Additionally it looks like it may matter whether you stamp them or not (if the board includes legal descriptions in the definition of a report): 472.025 Seals.ÛÓ (1) The board shall adopt, by rule, a form of seal to be used by all registrants holding valid certificates of registration, whether the registrants are corporations, partnerships, or individuals. Each registrant shall obtain an impression-type metal seal in that form; and all final drawings, plans, specifications, plats, or reports prepared or issued by the registrant in accordance with the standards of practice established by the board shall be signed by the registrant, dated, and stamped with his or her seal.
I don't know the Florida statutes or case law but if that's the extent of code related to legal descriptions it looks like the stamping part is a hole the Florida Board ought to plug at some point - maybe a regulation covers it. Anybody from Florida know if the law addresses this somewhere?
Never.
Although a written description is provided with the map, it is rarely used for the conveyance.
Even if it is provided, there is a 99% chance that the lawyer will retype it, remove the acreage, remove calls for monuments, and remove the company name/letterhead.
The other 1% are for those rare occasions where it is photocopied as is and included as "Exhibit A".
Jules J., post: 335202, member: 444 wrote: Here in Mississippi we can Stamp and Sign the plat as page 1 of 2, 3, or how many pages of the survey. Doing such the description does not have to be Stamp and Sign.
I somewhat agree with Jules as to what is required in Mississippi.
Rule 14.03 "Seal on Documents", Section 2 (b) states:
[INDENT=1]Each sheet of maps, plats, charts, documents, and reports for land surveying practice shall be signed, sealed, and dated by the licensee preparing them or prepared under his direct supervisory control.[/INDENT]
Section 3 of that same rule states:
[INDENT=1]Where more than one sheet is bound together in one volume, the licensee who prepared such volume, or under whose direction and control such volume was prepared, may sign, seal and date only the title or index sheet, providing that the signed sheet clearly identifies all of the other sheets comprising the bound volume, and provided that any of the other sheets which were prepared by, or under the direction and control of another licensee, be signed, and/or sealed and dated by said other licensee.[/INDENT]
[INDENT=1] [/INDENT]
So if a licensee is going to only sign and seal the first page (sheet 1 of 2, etc), the pages must be bound together, it must be clearly stated on the first page how many pages are included in the document and what information is contained on each sheet.
I try to always have the description on the face of the plat so it is signed and sealed. If I am not able to do this, I always sign and seal the description as a separate document.
Binding pages together and noting page number on each should assure that all pages get attached to the deed and follow into being recorded.
There are many variations in law regarding descriptions. Several States have tried to limit who can prepare them. I'm not aware of any that have (fully) succeeded. The outcome is usually that we can write them, but do not have exclusive domain. I personally won't prepare one that I wouldn't sign regardless of requirements to do so.
Joe W. Byrd, post: 335227, member: 10015 wrote: I somewhat agree with Jules as to what is required in Mississippi.
Rule 14.03 "Seal on Documents", Section 2 (b) states:
[INDENT]Each sheet of maps, plats, charts, documents, and reports for land surveying practice shall be signed, sealed, and dated by the licensee preparing them or prepared under his direct supervisory control.[/INDENT]Section 3 of that same rule states:
[INDENT]Where more than one sheet is bound together in one volume, the licensee who prepared such volume, or under whose direction and control such volume was prepared, may sign, seal and date only the title or index sheet, providing that the signed sheet clearly identifies all of the other sheets comprising the bound volume, and provided that any of the other sheets which were prepared by, or under the direction and control of another licensee, be signed, and/or sealed and dated by said other licensee.
[/INDENT]
So if a licensee is going to only sign and seal the first page (sheet 1 of 2, etc), the pages must be bound together, it must be clearly stated on the first page how many pages are included in the document and what information is contained on each sheet.I try to always have the description on the face of the plat so it is signed and sealed. If I am not able to do this, I always sign and seal the description as a separate document.
Mississippi Board Licensure
Board Member
Joe W. Byrd, PS
Brookhaven, Mississippi
Post 8, 2nd District, Southern,
appointment expires 07/01/2017
Mr. Byrd should know Mississippi
Whut?
Every State I've worked in requires a licensed Land Surveyor to write, sign and seal the recorded description for transfer (not mortgage) if it's not a verbatim description referring directly to a prior deed (a quitclaim transfer usually). As I've said many times, the previous description purporting a parcel's location is perfect, until proven otherwise.
Seen plenty of *alleged* descriptions from the Assessor's maps, title Company's shorthand descriptions, GIS BS, landowners trying to split their holdings without help, blah. Lawyers, real estate agents, Title companies, (actually, somebody on the street with a beef) et al can write and even record (totally bogus) descriptions but it's thin ice without a Land Surveyor along for the ride (who assumes liability if he gets on the sleigh). It's a Title issue, not a boundary issue until the LS shows up with his stamp to bound the actual transfer based on a legal description. Not a bad thing to forgo to save money for buyers if occupation is quiescent, no survey keeps sleeping dogs lie and might save $10,000 to $30,000 for a full ground survey (15-20 acres). That's why most buyers bail on the survey prior to purchase.
On the legal description multipage question, a statement, stamp and signing on the last sheet covers all previous sheets, as do the signatories and notary signatures. Same with Subdivision and Parcel Maps, except they have to be on the Title sheet. If a local jurisdiction demands stamps on every sheet they're being anal.
I get it. Some States allow any yahoo to write legal descriptions. They are damaging the cadastral heritage and introducing uncertainty into the Cadastre in their States. Is it good or bad for Land Surveyors, time will tell.
Mike Marks, post: 335265, member: 1108 wrote: Whut?
I get it. Some States allow any yahoo to write legal descriptions. They are damaging the cadastral heritage and introducing uncertainty into the Cadastre in their States. Is it good or bad for Land Surveyors, time will tell.
Historically it has been driven by our land tenure system being primarily the domain of private parties after the land was patented out. Land owners would write their own description and as long as you paid the fees the recorder would record it no questions asked. The government would only get involved if a conflict arose and it would be handled in the courts. We have not had a real land registration system take foot in this country save for a few areas. Around here if it weren't for local zoning regulations it would be almost totally unregulated.