Kris
Well, I know that it's different from region to region. When I hear 'centerline' all I have to relate to is something that has been defined, monumented and perpetuated over the years, so my answers are along those lines.
There have been centerline shifts in right of ways down in So. Calif but the original centerline can always be retraced with confidence.
Paul
I get where you're coming from. Around here, it's the center of what's there now. It's used interchangeably with your term, but we run into that very seldom.
I've never (I'm not sure any exist) found or retraced where a city in Cherokee County monumented it's streets with centerline monuments. Dad said they exist in Houston and Harris County, and that you almost had to go tie them on Sunday morning before 7 a.m. to beat traffic, but in podunk U.S.A., we don't have any.
road is like a river
There is no "Rest of the Story". That is the story.
EXCEPT I am supposed to publish a survey of it next wk. And, I have to choose something.
Ain't life grand?
Wanna hear a joke?
did you hear the one about.....?
road is like a river
You have spoken about 3 surveys and noted some differences. Where is the road today and did it move after surveyor "A" defined it's location and if it did, why? You said nothing about that, it may have a huge impact on your rendering a defensible opinion.
jud
Nate..
> There is no "Rest of the Story". That is the story.
>
> EXCEPT I am supposed to publish a survey of it next wk. And, I have to choose something.
I can sympathize with you on this Nate.
>It gets surveyed, and defined, by Surveyor A. Shows curves, and lots of data. Plat is in the courthouse. This survey DIVIDES the original parcel.
Did the original parcel extend across the road at the time that surveyor A arrived on scene and created a new parcel? Was surveyor A's survey the only record of the road alignment? Did the county show an alignment?
>Surveyor B surveys the land across the road, from surveyor A's survey, and REDEFINES the
>road, with a bunch of segments. It is several feet away from A's survey line.
>Surveyor C surveys it again, and defines it several feet from the previous surveys.
It looks like one of those surveys where you really cannot go wrong in expressing an opinion since you will be number 4 that will file a document that has this road involved. I know we have been talking about roads moving back and forth, but is this road in an area that would allow movement of feet, or are the differences between A and B because A used curves and B used segments?
I think your dilemma is coming up with an equitable solution and definitely a good explanation as to why you chose the course you did for your survey.
Nate..how about emailing me links to the three surveys..I am quite interested now. Send a Cadd file also Nate
road is like a river
Does the deed qualify to the center of the road, or does the deed call the line and the survey shows it being at the center of the road.
Does the existing road lie within the right of way (if there is one) when you use the first surveyors calls?
I've seen roads constructed on only half the right of way. That doesn't change the centerline location, it just means the taveled way isn't perfectly centered.
'Course there may not be a "right of way" or easement beyond the edge of the gravel/dirt road, in which case you may want to use what's there now. How far has the road moved?
Good luck with it!
DJJ
This post is good timing.
Tomorrow I am going to start measuring on one where there are/is:
4 surveys conducted (subject and adjoiners)
4 different alignments (by the survey calls)
3 different fee right of way widths called out (no deed reference)
1 recorded right of way deed
It all works out in the end, just a matter of working back in time until you find the answers.
road is like a river
After survey A, the road was widened, and improved.
N
Nate-
Move to Ontario.
We have very few roads' C/Ls that form boundaries.
It's the edge of a 66' or 40' or whatever width specified that the fee simple starts at.
Traditionally and with some statutory authority we try to make highways, as defined under the Municipal Act and those by prescription 66' wide.
Cheers
Derek
Forget the curve data
just put a Distance Along the Road and a Tie from one end of the frontage to the other and call it good.
Road widened - Nate
Gee Nate..that sure does explain in a forum post just why surveyor B could not agree with surveyor A, he was locating a different road than surveyor A was. Is the feet difference in B's survey in the difference in widening? I said forum post because none of us, cept you, have the maps and deeds to look at.
So how does surveyor C miss surveyor B? It seems to me he should match surveyor B unless the road was widened again and surveyor C is locating a third road.
Did surveyor C retrace surveyor A or surveyor B?
How many years span is there between surveyor A, surveyor B and surveyor C?
Not being from Arkansas this is just a SWAG, but I think that if a road was widened and improved that the authority doing so would not be that particular of matching any particular alignment. Pretty much like telling Joe the Cat Operator "OK Joe..get to it. We have a road to design, widen and improve before supper so get that Cat fired up and keep your eyeball sharp cause Jake and I want to do some catfishin tonight"
BTW...with this new information I would retrace surveyor A from the off road monuments and just place a note about the widening on the survey. Surveyor A's centerline remains the same, but there is now a new improvement centerline to address.
Nates Road(s)
OOPS double post
Derek, is the Queen reigning in Canada? (that was the last I'd heard, that they have her pic on your money!)
🙂
Road Building in the sticks
>
>
> Not being from Arkansas this is just a SWAG, but I think that if a road was widened and improved that the authority doing so would not be that particular of matching any particular alignment. Pretty much like telling Joe the Cat Operator "OK Joe..get to it. We have a road to design, widen and improve before supper so get that Cat fired up and keep your eyeball sharp cause Jake and I want to do some catfishin tonight"
>
That's pretty much the way they do it in my neck of the woods except we fish for hornpout. The town road agent just grades and fills in washouts, and tailgates gravel by eye. If road fabric is used they put a kink in the road at the end of the roll.
It is the responsibility of the property owners to go yell at him if he crowds their side of the road; but most people really don't care if the road shifts a few feet. They just want the mudhole fixed. Our town probably spends less money on the actual road than you guys would charge to design the road, and faster too.
If I understand the issue at hand, it seems pretty simple to me. If the parcel was bisected by an easement interest for a County Road, then the recitals/geometry along that "centerline" in the description from Surveyor A is where you need to retrace it. That "centerline" is now a senior line since it severed a tract from the parent parcel. There are two tracts, one junior, one senior, with a common line created by Surveyor A, subject to an easement to the public for road purposes.
As others have said, the location of the road itself, the materials, the borrow ditches, utilities, may creep and meander over time. That's the extent of the public's use and the its' easement interest. That has nothing to do with the "centerline" as defined by Surveyor A. Everyone seems to be getting caught up in the word "centerline". For retracement, the word "centerline" doesn't mean a thing in this particular case. You are retracing a junior/senior boundary line whose location is known and defined by Surveyor A. Surveyors B & C are just mistaken as to where that line is. Just because they erroneously retraced that junior/senior line, does not make it a "centerline" or new line between the two parcels.
Please enlighten me if I've misunderstood the problem.
What is surveyor A was sloppy with his centerline math?
> the recitals/geometry along that "centerline" in the description from Surveyor A is where you need to retrace it. .
The only I would add is.....
If surveyor A was intending to describe the centerline of an existing road, but was sloppy with his curve data, the description might not match the actual centerline of the road. These non-layed out roads often have non-simple, non-tangent curves which are difficult to describe mathematically. Surveyor B may have to follow the old centerline and throw the old math out the window.
This often seems to be a problem in my area. When you plot the math vs. reality, you are often forced to choose reality or you have to draw the line through someone's front porch.
Nate
Nate,
Do these plats represent a similar situation?
ftp://ftp.geostor.arkansas.gov/Monthly_Plats/Pike/216805.pdf
ftp://ftp.geostor.arkansas.gov/Monthly_Plats/Pike/00039046.pdf
DDSM
What is surveyor A was sloppy with his centerline math?
> > the recitals/geometry along that "centerline" in the description from Surveyor A is where you need to retrace it. .
>
> The only I would add is.....
>
> If surveyor A was intending to describe the centerline of an existing road, but was sloppy with his curve data, the description might not match the actual centerline of the road. These non-layed out roads often have non-simple, non-tangent curves which are difficult to describe mathematically. Surveyor B may have to follow the old centerline and throw the old math out the window.
>
> This often seems to be a problem in my area. When you plot the math vs. reality, you are often forced to choose reality or you have to draw the line through someone's front porch.
Again, this seems to be a regional issue. I can almost guarantee you there is no "official centerline". It's just an easement to the public, with no defined centerline and whose limits are defined by its' evident use. So again, the line is the Surveyor A line who severed the tract and it has nothing to do with any imagined "centerline".
OK, lets talk about the road C/L as a boundary - Glen
> Please enlighten me if I've misunderstood the problem.
Were on the same page Glen. Just different terms are being used.
Once the old road was widened and realigned it no longer would control for the centerline, which is the senior line.
After Nate posted about the widening and improvement of the old road, the dilemma of what to do simply vanished. You cannot retrace what is not there anymore, so start from other monuments that tied into the original road and work the old road centerline (senior line) back into position.
It depends upon what the Deed description says but if it calls to the road as a monument then the courses and distances would yield. Sometimes I have found, though, bounds calls did not make it into the Deed although it is obvious that was the intent. Deed scriveners from previous eras where not always careful about making the intent plain as the nose on your face; maybe they lived in a different, more trusting, culture.
How is the property occupied? Usually in these rural informal dirt road situations both owners know they own to their side of the road, the road being the monument.
If the road actually physically shifted (and this can be proven) then it is likely the best evidence of the boundary is described center line. The presumption is roads don't move so it is possible that the described center line data is inaccurate. It was common at one time to produce the tangents to the curve PI then fit a radius in there. It could be the selected radius is too short or too long.
Generally in a rural situation like this the actual physical road is the boundary unless you can prove it has moved or the intent was not to use the road as a boundary.
As the Manual says, "No definite set of rules can be laid down in advance." (1973 Manual, paragraph 6-15 about in the middle) You have to consider the evidence of every particular case to find the location of the boundary.
