Road is a county road, dirt, with a bit of gravel base thrown in.
It gets surveyed, and defined, by Surveyor A. Shows curves, and lots of data. Plat is in the courthouse. This survey DIVIDES the original parcel.
Along come several more surveyors.
Surveyor B surveys the land across the road, from surveyor A's survey, and REDEFINES the road, with a bunch of segments. It is several feet away from A's survey line.
Surveyor C surveys it again, and defines it several feet from the previous surveys.
Where is the Centerline?
What is the boundary?
Nate
> Road is a county road, dirt, with a bit of gravel base thrown in.
>
> It gets surveyed, and defined, by Surveyor A. Shows curves, and lots of data. Plat is in the courthouse. This survey DIVIDES the original parcel.
>
> Along come several more surveyors.
>
> Surveyor B surveys the land across the road, from surveyor A's survey, and REDEFINES the road, with a bunch of segments. It is several feet away from A's survey line.
>
> Surveyor C surveys it again, and defines it several feet from the previous surveys.
>
> Where is the Centerline?
>
> What is the boundary?
>
> Nate
It's stuff like this that makes me glad that I work in an area where the city/county had common sense and foresight over 100 years ago to define right of way centerlines and actually be stupid enough to place monuments that marked the centerline with reference marks.
As far as your questions Nate...
> Where is the Centerline? What is the boundary?
It changes from use and by survey. It is undefined and will remain so.
The boundary is surveyor a's interpretation of the centerline.
We have the same stuff. We don't always make curves but use out mapping shots for the center of the traveled path when retracing an old deed that calls to go to the road. When I'm retracing a newer survey who already did it, I try like hell to fit his stuff.
That's why when we divide based on a road, we monument all of the pi's with rods or nails in the oil sand with washers.
Couldn't a definition be centerline is the middle of the right-of-way as established by section lines? Of course it's only good on some roads....
>The boundary is surveyor a's interpretation of the centerline.
Nope...Surveyor A, B and C just formed opinions of where they believed the centerline to be at the time of their survey. Surveyor A's opinion does not define a fixed centerline so the centerline position is still unknown. Another thing is, what does the county say on where their right of way centerline is?
Nate said that Surveyor A divided and created the boundaries of the parcel. So the parcel boundaries are as Kris said, related to A's survey.
But Nate is pulling one on us, by trying to bring up multiple road alignments...
The deed to a parcel must be interpreted as to the time it was created.
Thus, follow in A's footsteps...
If not in a recording state what more can you expect, if records are filed, someone did not do their research. The kind of road you describe do migrate over time especially on curves or it could be erosion caused, so the road may be shifting from survey to survey. The reason for the note, "As it existed on 'Date of field work'", when I am working along such roads or streams.
jud
If the centerline of the road is "the monument" that defines the property boundaries, then the surveyor's (A-Z) bearings and distances are merely measurements, treat them as such.
Other situations may occur. It depends.
>Nate said that Surveyor A divided and created the boundaries of the parcel. So the parcel boundaries are as Kris said, related to A's survey.
That may be true for lines and corners that do not touch the county road interest. It does not apply to the centerline. Prior to surveyor A arriving on the scene, I am quite sure that other surveyors in days long past did the same thing, gave an opinion on where the centerline was at the time of their survey. Since the county is the interest holder of the road, I am assuming it is an easement, then they have to be brought into the equation.
The track of dirt roads will change in location over time by weather and use. What was the sidelines of a road 10 years ago will not be the sidelines today and will not be the same from today compared to 10 years from now.
> If not in a recording state what more can you expect, if records are filed, someone did not do their research. The kind of road you describe do migrate over time especially on curves or it could be erosion caused, so the road may be shifting from survey to survey. The reason for the note, "As it existed on 'Date of field work'", when I am working along such roads or streams.
> jud
Sometimes the roads do migrate.
ftp://ftp.geostor.arkansas.gov/Monthly_Plats/Pike/216805.pdf
ftp://ftp.geostor.arkansas.gov/Monthly_Plats/Pike/00039046.pdf
😉
DDSM
The actual centerline of the traveled path along a graded road will migrate back and forth every time it is regraded.
The original margins of that roadbed will migrate at a smaller rate of change and will usually be by natural events.
When the calls of the property and the adjoining tracts fit together within the margins of the roadbed, that is where they fall and stay.
I do not see any road as being like a waterway that is a boundary where the change is natural.
A road changes by man's doings and that should not change a boundary location.
When the original centerline can be relocated with certainty, that is the boundary.
You just prove WHY to deed must be interpretated as of the time the parcel was created.
The road is ever changing, and not locked down.
Agreeing that the side and back lines of the parcel are to be followed related to Surveyor A, and not confining the CL or ROW to the same, raises a question...
Why only partially follow the creating document?
Remember, what was sold/purchased. What was the intent and acceptance by the land owners?
To them, their boundary hasn't changed.
Is there no original description for the road?
I know that I've often found what I need to know by looking through old county engineer/auditor "road books" that are not indexed in the recorder's offices to find where the various owners back in the day petitioned the county for a road and it is described there, often with a quasi-survey looking drawing.
Dan,
I don't think Pike County has a County Engineer...but it has a diamond mine.
Pike County
Pike County was formed in November 1833 by the Territorial Legislature from portions of Clark and Hempstead counties and was named for Zebulon Pike, for whom Pike's Peak in Colorado is named. The county seat is Murfreesboro. The landscape of the county is rugged terrain in the northern half and rolling hills in the south. The economic base of Pike County is made up of commercial forests and small family farms. The Crater of Diamonds, an 886-acre natural park south of Murfreesboro, is the only diamond mine in North America open to the public. If you find a diamond, you keep the diamond. The crater also yields amethyst, opal, jasper, agate, quartz and other minerals. The deed records for the diamond mind are housed in the county courthouse and are the only records of title in North America to a diamond mine. The Caddo River, the Little Missouri River and Lake Greeson offer excellent fishing, canoeing, swimming, picnicking sites, and other water activities. As of the 2000 census, Pike County had a population of 11,303 residents.
http://local.arkansas.gov/local.php?agency=Pike%20County
DDSM
>You just prove WHY to deed must be interpretated as of the time the parcel was created.
The post is not about deed interpretation, it is about road centerline. I do not know what the control is like in Granite Bay California, as far as I know it is like Arkansas as far as road centerlines go.
In my world we do not have these type of problems of where a centerline is.
>The road is ever changing, and not locked down.
If the road changes it's location over time then using the word 'centerline' is not really applicable. The centerline of the road is not the boundary of Surveyor A's parcel.
Going's County Road
Pages from a county road book ...
Click for record of Going's County Road (2 page pdf)
Five miles, seven chains and fifty-six links long road laid out by Dept. County Surveyor Leinbach, two chainmen (sworn & approved), 1 teamster, 1 flag bearer, & 1 stake driver in September, 1860 (before Lincoln was president) at a cost of $15.00.
Paul
> >The boundary is surveyor a's interpretation of the centerline.
>
> Nope...Surveyor A, B and C just formed opinions of where they believed the centerline to be at the time of their survey. Surveyor A's opinion does not define a fixed centerline so the centerline position is still unknown. Another thing is, what does the county say on where their right of way centerline is?
Paul, that may be the hang up and what got lost in translation. While I can't speak for Arkansas, rural roads in Texas have no defined centerline and many times are old wagon trails that in the early 20th century came under the purview of the County Road Commissioner and was maintained for the use of the public.
To that end, if that is what the case is with Nate, I stand by my comments. For where I practice, the road is a road with no maps, alignments, and damn few dedications (for rural roads, obviously state roads are different) and when a surveyor uses one of them to divide property, the original surveyor's lines will hold, even if the dirt road ebbs and flows. I do not, nor have I ever seen a road become elevated to that of a natural monument status.
City streets and those with defined widths need not apply to the above rationale. Only those rural roads that became roads when helping folks was a good idea and good for getting re-elected.
As far as the county having a defined width on these roads, I will point out the Flower Mound case I posted some months ago where "whatever the right of way was is whatever the right of way is" and it is simply what is occupied. We have some county roads that are 30' between the right-of-way fences and some that are 100' between the right of way fences. There is no, at least in Cherokee County, defined width for rural county roads.
If I were looking at this with Cali eyes and the work you produce out there, I would see your stance much better. That's not to say that it's inferior, far from it. In fact I'd say that you produce some of the coolest looking plats on this board and are tough enough to post them too. It is to say however, that in different areas, things are done differently.
Now we gotta hear the rest of the story from Nate.
Dan - Have you seen the new five dollar bill?
> Five miles, seven chains and fifty-six links long road laid out by Dept. County Surveyor Leinbach, two chainmen (sworn & approved), 1 teamster, 1 flag bearer, & 1 stake driver in September, 1860 (before Lincoln was president) at a cost of $15.00.
If only the dollar were that strong now. Even 1% of that strength would be a vast improvement.
New Five Dollar Bill
road is like a river
Like a river, these types of roads meander around over time. They were never layed out and your fancy simple curves would never exactly define it's location anyway. It's best to not lose sleep over it.
Going's County Road
This is a reply to the general thread and not Dan Rittel per se.
I would expect that a description that calls to the being north of the road (for example) to be north of the road as it existed at the time the description was written. Sometimes your best available evidence as to where the road was at the time, is where the road is sitting right now. Sometimes it (the best available evidence) might be another surveyor's metes-and-bounds description of the road which was described closer (in time) to the first time the deed description was written. (or perhaps between fences). A good examination of all the evidence might be necessary.
But perhaps I am wrong.