Obliterated or Lost?

Suppose for a minute that the construction surveyor was not you but somebody else who provided you their notes. What would your answer be then?

I'd probably accept the notes. Probably do a little checking of the notes to see if what's still remaining still checks out. If it does I'd accept the notes and testimony as best available evidence. Better than some old guy telling you he seen the corner over there way back when, which I've seen used before.

Obliterated. Put it back where it was (document your procedure) with some accessories...but you knew that was the answer right? 😉

It's obliterated to me BUT, there has been some surveying going on in the area that I think would have needed this corner. I haven't been there for about a year but I don't believe anyone has marked it (there is no corner record filed). So if I research further I'm pretty sure there will be surveys that calculated the location of the corner by proportion to set other corners of a survey. So the corner may have been properly lost to them. So I'm just pondering the problem, really ain't much different than hundreds of other corners that been lost to some and found properly by others later. So the chaos grows exponentially I suppose! I've found original stones before with proportioned corners nearby (sometimes more than one). I suppose it's just one of the hazards of going to your calculator.

Neither...

Direct evidence of the original corner monument which can be used to replace the original monument in its former position means that the corner is EXISTENT, not Obliterated, and certainly not Lost. Indirect evidence which allows you to replace the monument based upon reputation and reliance from secondary sources would classify the corner as Obliterated. Failure to recover any evidence would classify it as Lost. Of course, once an obliterated or lost corner is restored, it is treated as existent.

JBS

Neither...

I agree with Mr Stahl. If you have direct knowledge of the location of the original corner, it would be inappropriate to do anything other than replace it in that location.

Chris B

Neither...ditto that

Neihter.
I was told it is "disturbed".
that was the way I told to record in the field book.
However I have come upon a ROW mon that was nearly obliterated. "destroyed" was more like it.
E

Neither...

So, which is the correct point? The lost corner that has been restored and is now existent. Or, the existent corner that has been replaced? From the facts stated, both seem equally legitimate.

I think I would be leaning toward the lost corner as restored and now existent. The previously existent corner is, after all, always the case. It's just a matter of time until that direct evidence is no longer available (as it was not in this case).

Of course it would depend on the result of one v. the other position. How much reliance and of what type appears to have been placed on one position or the other.

Obliterated

set it back.

Have your measuring capabilities changed in those 20 some years?

Could their be a 5 foot +/- difference in your location today?

Have you performed an extensive search including probing?

Have you recognized the stone in a pile at the edge of the field?

Neither...

yep- welcome to the 2009 Manual, Leon.....:-)

Neither...

Technically JB may be correct, however, is there a grey area or overlap? Here's the definition of an obliterated corner in Section 6-17 of the 2009 Manual: "An obliterated corner is an existent corner where, at the corners original position, there are no remaining traces of the monument or its accessories but whose position has been perpetuated... or by some acceptable record evidence."

Leon

Really? What are you trying to prompt here? Hell yes it's good enough. It's not lost (I don't know that I've ever seen a lost corner). Who gives a damn about your status with the license board at the time of the tie? I sure don't, and neither does another surveyor who's looking for it.

It's no different that an old farmer driving an axle next to the pine knot, or another landowner replacing an obliterated corner from the witness trees.

Set the damn corner and go on. If you must, note in your CR, CCR, or whatever it's called, that your tie is based on another tie you made from years back without a license. No one will care.

BigE

> Neihter.
> I was told it is "disturbed".
> that was the way I told to record in the field book.
> However I have come upon a ROW mon that was nearly obliterated. "destroyed" was more like it.
> E

I agree with your definition of how you might notate it in your field book when you are working for a licensed surveyor or a crew chief. 'Obliterated' and 'lost' have a defined meaning in the BLM Manual of Instructions. Briefly, lost would imply that the monument is totally gone, and no "absolutely" no evidence exists to put it back in the same place. Obliterated, implies that, although the monument does no longer appear to be in place, there is enough evidence to put it back (reasonably) in the same place. I may not be phrasing that perfectly, but the above is a simplified paraphrasing of it.

Neither...

> Technically JB may be correct, however, is there a grey area or overlap? Here's the definition of an obliterated corner in Section 6-17 of the 2009 Manual: "An obliterated corner is an existent corner where, at the corners original position, there are no remaining traces of the monument or its accessories but whose position has been perpetuated... or by some acceptable record evidence."

Then, there's the definition of an Existent corner from the 2009 Manual:

6-11. An existent corner is one whose original position can be identified by substantial evidence of the monu­ment or its accessories, by reference to the description in the field notes, or located by an acceptable supple­mental survey record, some physical evidence, or reli­able testimony.

I'd say the testimony (not to mention the "supplemental survey record") is pretty reliable in this case... ;o)

There is a difference between "direct" evidence leading to the original corner and "corroborative" or "indirect" evidence which leads you to a position that the corner "most probably" held based upon the "best available evidence." The 2009 Manual kind of mixes the terms "obliterated" and "existent" under the new definition for an obliterated corner (in my opinion). I'd hold (under the old Manual and common law) that the "obliterated" corner doesn't become "existent" until after the evidence is gathered, weighed, resolved, and the monument is set. After that point in time, the "obliterated" corner is treated as an "existent" corner. The new definition appears to hold them equal, as in, "an obliterated corner is and existent corner." Semantics, really.

JBS

Neither...

Old tools, YES I need to upgrade my BLM manual to 2009. $75.

Leon

Not trying to start anything. But on second though there are those that won't accept anything that isn't called for or done by a licensed surveyor.

Will anyone care? Well maybe a surveyor that called the corner lost and would like its status to remain lost (got work out there based on lost).

Actually I don't have any interest in the corner other than the bounty I can collect by resetting it and filing a corner record with the county. Its easy for me to get to, just money waiting to be picked up for the work. Probably should do it just so the corner doesn't become lost.

Can we generalize this?

I'm not sure what the correct answer may be because I do not have enough data at this point.

Now let's consider a more general type of problem. You have knowledge of where a monument was located several years ago and can reset it precisely based on notes made at the time. This is wide-open land such that there is minimal dollar value involved if the final corner location is 20 feet in some direction from a different solution. You reset what you consider to be an obliterated corner. A week later you discover that a subdivision has been platted and monumented based on the assumption that the corner was "lost". Maybe a monument was set at the alternate position and maybe none was set. Several of the platted lots have been sold for many thousands of dollars each. Now, what do you do? Do you pull your re-established monument and thereby cause no problem for the lot owners? Do you demand the subdividing surveyor correct his "faulty" plat and cause mega-heartburn for the lot owners? Do you keep quiet and hope no one ever finds out there are two corners?

Leon

> Actually I don't have any interest in the corner other than the bounty I can collect by resetting it and filing a corner record with the county.

And who pays this bounty for your proactive yet apathetic gesture on perpetuating a PLSS corner?