right o thats where i got this website
no, actually i'm trying to figure out if a surveyor can locate a simple set of coordinates..i can and am not even close to a surveyor...but i need them precise without all the digging around ive been doing to get exact..it can be done...i'm just trying to locate who, or how....and i see its not you..please be careful when calling others, especially those you do not know, names..good thing it was ''goofy''...i like goofy..and buggs bunny and the pink panther...can't really say the same for you though friend...if you do not like the thread look elsewhere...i am trying to find serious answers to serious questions...i do not plan on telling anyone how to do anything....i simply need the exact location of a simple set of coordinates marked on the ground so i do not go outside those coordinates while excavating...nothing more or less..
not even close..jesse spent that on budweiser and wild turkey you know :}
If you are relying upon 1870's info, accuracy may or may not be worth the paper it is reference on.
With today's technology a position can be located close enough by most anyone with proper equipment.
That does not mean that what you are looking for will be there.
It depends upon where this location is, who set it and how well any of the other relics you have located match the original information.
Not everything was verified on the ground.
Good luck fisherman.
😉
well mr harris it looks like you might have an idea as to the who...i'm not talking ;}...and i can positively guarantee it was done as good as humanly possible at the time...depending on exactly where in n/e texas you are from you might know this already '}..what i'm looking for might very well not be there...i'm not really certain exactly what it even is that i'm looking for..i can say that if it has been moved they went to the trouble to backfill the hole and level the earth...but from what i've seen to date, that would be a walk in the park...more than likely just an old river rock, same as several of the rest:-X
the relics matched perfectly
when things get lost you never really know..unless you know.
matched on maps, ground, and underground..perfectly
this is what i am looking for...''With today's technology a position can be located close enough by most anyone with proper equipment''...tell me more please..
oh and i also guess that you know in certain places, like finland, to wish a fisherman good luck will insure he has a poor catch..but i'm not much on superstition...but...we could rise...lever et se battre à nouveau...
I can't believe I have lurked around here this long, and this is the thread that makes me get a login..
Sounds legit to me, I think this guy is really looking for answers, but not exactly sure how to go about it (he even said it). And doesn't want to give up any more info that he has to. These guys sure seem to be willing to solve the great mystery, if you ease up on some some of information. I do understand that their are other parties involved where you can't just let the cat out of the bag, and it can be tough talking the survey language when you don't really understand it. You have to provide more information if you want these guys to really take you seriously
However, I think Bill told you the solution when he said to take the existing "found" evidence, and make it relative to what you are searching for, and others have probably said the exact same thing, you just didn't understand it.
It seems that this is important to you, and you want it done right. It's also become such a long project that you refer to it as a game. If you want to keep playing the game before you dig, why don't you get bearings off of your property in question (or treasure map?), and the other nearby properties that these old timer masters surveyed and compare the differences between their record numbers and your (recently surveyed) current numbers. Then you could get a level of "error". That might ease your worries a bit if you are going for >1 second accuracy here.. might not, and maybe you've already done this. maybe this is too redundant..
I can't believe I'm typing this but why not get as close as you can on your own, and then use GPR to map the subsurface? I don't know the soil conditions in and around your project, but it could really help if you really are in a "Do I cut the green wire, or the red wire?" situation. If you can pinpoint your location down to a 20x20 grid, GPR it and have a shovel party. While some people might deny the usefulness of GPR, I know with the right system you can get some impressive results, just have to have the right monkey operating the switchboard. Good luck on the hunt - 1) Hire a surveyor 2) Communicate what you are actually trying to achieve 3) Realize how much error you can tolerate. If the surveyor has the time, he'll tell you if your visions are actually obtainable with his experience.
Datum?! i don't even like 'em
-oh sorry if I'm replying out of order on this board, it's my first post, and I'm just replying the the very last post.
A cheap GPS from walmart with WAAS correction will get an accuracy of about 15-30 feet at best. A survey grade receiver without a base and receiving waas corrections will usually get within 3 feet. A survey grade receiver with a base transmitting corrections will get down to less than an inch. To do that, you would have to log a static session, that would be letting the base record a file for 2 or more hours, and send that into OPUS for an accurate location. OPUS is a service provided by the National Geodetic Survey.
The OPUS results will be provided in NAD83 and WGS84. In my area, that's about 4 foot difference. The problem is that neither may match your 1870 coordinates.
What I would do if all your points are in an area of a few square miles is this:
Check mission planning. That is software that will tell you the best times for observations. Enough satellites spread out across the sky will give you a more accurate location than not enough satellites or too many in one sector of the sky.
Get a reading on the points you have already found. Go back the next day at a different time of day and get another reading.
Compare your given coordinates with the reading you got from the GPS to get a correction. I would do that in a spread sheet and average the differences. Here you will find how much error you could expect. You will want to do this separately for the latitude and longitude. If the differences between the given and the observed coordinates vary greatly then it won't be much help. If you post back here with the largest, smallest, and average error between the given and the observed latitude and longitude, someone can give you an idea of how it will translate to the ground in feet. Keep in mind it could be a 1000 feet off but if each one is the same 1000 feet and in the same direction, then the correction will get you much closer. Because of this, the OPUS results may not be necessary.
Apply the correction to the last given coordinates and go hunting. Be sure to apply it in the correct direction, otherwise you are just doubling your error.
If the points are in an area larger than an average county, then I would rethink the process.
Just curious, you wouldn't happen to know a fella named Guy Powell would you? He kinda thinks like you do.
Sounds like you are on a treasure hunt. And, like RETRACEMENT is more what you are into. Having precise coords, on retracement, can be meaningless... because the person(s) you are retracing, may not have much precision. Or, is this a Tesla Experiment?
N
finally..someone who sees exactly where i am....yes there are several here that seem to be trying to help...and again correct that i do have a hard time understanding parts of it..not a surveyor..never professed to be..in looking back over my research, the nearby properties i mentioned, i was incorrect on something i said here...these fellows did not do the original surveys on those properties...they did go in, survey, and plot out the properties..they left very detailed maps showing their work, which by the way is still pretty much now as it was then...but, on not a single one did they record the first coordinate...the property i am working is but a small piece less than 25 acres..the very first recorded survey of the property is dated in the 1960s..there are no coordinates listed on it..none of the deeds show a single coordinate...there is no ''from a point at this coordinate, on the n/e corner, even and running parallel with bob smiths line 384 ft s/w to a stone''..none of that..all it shows is acreage total and a drawn outline.. we have used gpr twice on the property..its pretty much useless with the soils present along with the clay, even though maximum depth to bedrock is only around 20 ft deep..once we rented one, and i operated it...we sent the results to be analized, and they were not real good, negligible at best..the second time we hired a geophysical firm to do it...they used gpr, em, and some other type eq i cant remember..after we paid them they said their eq wouldnt work well in soil/clay conditions..dont know why they couldnt have told us that beforhand, as they were supplied with soil compositions, clay info, bedrock compostion, at the outset of our showing interest in hiring them..their results were much worse than mine...go figure [sarcasm][/sarcasm]...so, i set about finding out what the problem was, and did on gpr what i am trying to do here...i found out from several gpr manufacturers the same problem exists with pretty much all gpr systems, between sandy/silty soils and the clay, you might as well forget it...on the location/error/correction thing, i guess thats what i have been doing..i have taken coordinates, via several different sources, map programs, multiple handheld gps, and plotted them all on a close up aerial and ''mark'' each...each one is a different location..close but different..i locate the area with the most concentration of ''marks'', or a centerpoint between them all...i then locate things i can measure from on the pic like boulders, poles, other known points i have already been to, and plot a distance and line of bearing to the ''hot'' spot...i go on ground to at least 3-4 of these marker spots, get my line of bearing, measure off distance and mark spot on the ground...after doing this off 3-4 known locations i have {probably luckily} hit every one of the intended excavation points but not exact...on a couple locations we ended up digging much larger holes than would have been needed were i more adept at ya'lls job.... oh and no treasure map...just numbers and letters..;-) thanks
thank you jaro just the type information i came here looking for...and the area is less than 25 acres..never heard of guy powell..if he's hardheaded, never gives up, and will go to whatever lengths needed to figure out a problem, we are probably very much alike...i do appreciate your time and assistance..
not an experiment...i think i have made it plain that the coordinates would be as perfect as humanly possible at the time, no matter if they had to recheck it 100 times over the course of a year or two....more of a historical type thing..the definition of what could be construed to be a treasure is different in many eyes..a dog sees a buried bone as a treasure,,,a fisherman sees big long nightcrawlers as treasure..i'm more of a historian, so, wonder what it is that we seek..maybe the truth..maybe;-)
A few more things.
Due to the methods of obtaining Latitude and Longitude that long ago, the Latitude is usually more accurate that the Longitude. Obtaining Longitude was time dependent.
Also, 1 second of latitude is about 100 feet, 1 second of longitude will be less due to the converging longitude lines as you get closer to the north or south pole.
One more thing that may or may not help, I would rather not post here. You don't have email address contactable checked in you profile so I can't send you a PM. If you click on the envelope beside my name and send me an email, I can send you one more bit of info.
James
In all seriousness, really
We do this sort of thing everyday. Not me individually, but as a profession. We take data and place it on the ground.
This particular request is not much different that trying to locate town bounds based on the MA town boundary book.
I am not sure "exactly" when these lat/longs were developed but the book is dated 1907
I can, and have reproduced the lat'longs. reduced to MA cords and have located a few of these monuments in my time.
Maybe it's akin to rocket science for some, but it's not undoable.
Asking to locate specific lat/long isn't killer, determining if it's the right lat/long might be.
However, most of us should be able to figure a couple potential locations, and one will probably be right.
I may be down Savannah next month, maybe I should swing by NC with my gps ! 🙂
Dtp
What is the background of the masters of the 1870's? Were they mariners that had experience plotting locations with sextants? Were they militia, experienced in plotting firing solutions for cannon placement during the Civil War? This knowledge would help in making the determination on how to interpret the evidence left to be deciphered.
The Surveyor's Historical Society may be able to aid in the interpretation and retracement of your notes.
> not an experiment...i think i have made it plain that the coordinates would be as perfect as humanly possible at the time, no matter if they had to recheck it 100 times over the course of a year or two....more of a historical type thing..the definition of what could be construed to be a treasure is different in many eyes..a dog sees a buried bone as a treasure,,,a fisherman sees big long nightcrawlers as treasure..i'm more of a historian, so, wonder what it is that we seek..maybe the truth..maybe;-)
"coordinates would be as perfect as humanly possible at the time"
what do you mean by "perfect"?
Please get Very Clear how close you need this data... 1" or 1' or down to the 0.00001"
it can be done, but the tools and efforts are vastly different.
Seriously, you need some help with defining what you want and how to express that to the possible candidates for the project.
It is obvious that you want the data to be repeatable.
Do you want to be able to do that without assistance or training?
BTW: punctuation, capitalization, sentence structure. and paragraphs are very handy, try it!
(I still smells rather trollish here)
New Handle Same Troll
> [msg=221062]Earlier Thread[/msg]
>
> Coincidence? Perhaps. But their styles are remarkably similar. Same circular logic.
That was a great thread, from a year ago, I'm sorry I missed it. Especially the part where he told Kent 'you don't know what your talking about. LOL
It looked like Wendell ejected the guy; so unless he came up with a new ip address, it probably isn't him. To bad too, it might have been interesting to find out what happened.....adverse possession on a man cave; I suppose any thing is possible....with the right lawyer.
And as for Mr. Aspot here; he uses words like perfect and exactly, yet has no idea as to what they mean.
He would do well to study the teachings of Dr. Buckner, and come back to us with his questions; when he understands more of what he is asking....
New Handle Same Troll
> At least the one in the other thread properly punctuated sentences as opposed to this one with little to no punctuation (which drives me bat-s...t crazy).
> Just my observation.
I brought up the same fishing expedition up the hill a bit. When I lived in 'da UP of MI anybody who lived in the lower was a "troll", living below the bridge. Funny in it's own way, but guess you'd have had to be there. Hard to beat that bridge connecting them, about 7 miles worth.
cheers Mr E....;-)
Everyone here is too polite to say it.
Would you please stop with the goofy Lat/Lon notation already!
It has been explained to you that proper notation would be for example:
N 45 30.123 W
People here are giving you information and you keep ignoring it and continue going on and on with your preconceived view of things.
Several times people have mentioned Reference Datums.
You keep blowing right past that trying to ignore it.
Use Google.
Back in the 1870's the United States was trying to locate precise Lat/Lon to establish new State boundaries. These points are hundreds of feet off by modern methods.
They were set by "the best in the business" at the time.
Judging by your writing and grammar I'm guessing you are not in the United States.
or even a first world country.
I'm also willing to bet that the "the best in the business" wherever you are would be mediocre at best when compared to those who laid out US State boundaries.
The only way to even get near your desired positions is by relative directions/distances from known, existing, identifiable related points.
i.e. Creating a "Translation Factor" between old and modern Lat/Lon.
That also has been mentioned to you. But you ignore it and regurgitate more of your unintelligible narrative of what you have done.
Sounds a whole lot like someone is involved in the Knights Templar or the Freemasons, thus the resemblance to the Oak Island search.
Careful with what you say, you never know who is listening...perhaps you have already said too much.