So I have had several elevation certs lately with no established BFE on the firm maps and no FIS profiles either. The counties they have been in cannot provide me with a community determined BFE. Fema tells me I can possibly get this from the C.O.E. or the Dept. of Natural resources. I have downloaded some DEM files and other files from TNRIS but cant for the life of me figure out what to do with them. I have Carlson 2007 running in Autocad. I have gotten one of the files to come in and show some lines but they dont have any elevation associated with them.
One of the locations has an established BFE 3000' downstream in another county. This client would like to apply for a LOMA because he feels the property is not in the flood because it was not flooded in our major events from a couple of years ago.
I am finding myself lacking in this area as I spent too long in the public sector and in pipeline and didnt get enough exposure to elevation certs.
Any advice is appreciated
Darryl Beard, post: 438940, member: 11556 wrote: So I have had several elevation certs lately with no established BFE on the firm maps and no FIS profiles either. The counties they have been in cannot provide me with a community determined BFE. Fema tells me I can possibly get this from the C.O.E. or the Dept. of Natural resources. I have downloaded some DEM files and other files from TNRIS but cant for the life of me figure out what to do with them. I have Carlson 2007 running in Autocad. I have gotten one of the files to come in and show some lines but they dont have any elevation associated with them.
One of the locations has an established BFE 3000' downstream in another county. This client would like to apply for a LOMA because he feels the property is not in the flood because it was not flooded in our major events from a couple of years ago.
I am finding myself lacking in this area as I spent too long in the public sector and in pipeline and didnt get enough exposure to elevation certs.
Any advice is appreciated
Unnumbered A Zones...where angels fear to tread. Don't know if this is legit or not, and I know you're not in VT, but this says FEMA will calc your BFE for you if less than 5 acres http://dec.vermont.gov/sites/dec/files/wsm/rivers/docs/rv_azonesurvey.pdf .
Disclaimer: I'm no expert either.
Fill out Section E, on the Elevation Certificate. I think this can be done without a licensed surveyor, but I see no reason we can't do it. I have offered for many prospective clients to fill this portion out for them, but they usually either do it themselves or hire another surveyor. I think I have only done one or two where I filled out this section.
As far as Flood Elevation Certificates are concerned most of the information is contained in the instructions which are part of the most recent certificate. I have learned more from that than any other FEMA stuff.
I am not an expert at all things FEMA, but becoming pretty good at Elevation Certificates.
What frozen north said is correct. Fill out an EC as normal, produce a cover letter stating that you have checked for alternative sources for a BFE, but none is available and request FEMA determine it. Submit supporting LOMA documentation as normal and wait.
Have procured dozens in this manner over the years. Not sure about where you are, but in my neck of the woods, Zone A's are garbage in terms of their extents.
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I hire an engineer, the one I use developed a spread sheet, he plugs in our x sections and calculates the BFE
I just had two with that very same issue but I lucked out. On one the County had replaced a bridge adjacent to the property and spent the money to develop the BFE. On the second I prepared a LOMA 'Out As Shown' because the building in question fell outside of the mysterious Zone A line on Goggle Earth. The County engineer that deals with flood issues is the one whom told me about that little gem. My big question for FEMA is how can you create the Zone A if you don't have the BFE?
John Putnam, post: 438964, member: 1188 wrote: My big question for FEMA is how can you create the Zone A if you don't have the BFE?
I think Zone A is created by actuaries, not engineers. Step 1, have engineers develop Zone AE. Step 2, Compute size of insurance pool needed to balance Zone AE risk. Step 3, Create Zone A.
Darryl Beard, post: 438940, member: 11556 wrote: So I have had several elevation certs lately with no established BFE on the firm maps and no FIS profiles either. The counties they have been in cannot provide me with a community determined BFE. Fema tells me I can possibly get this from the C.O.E. or the Dept. of Natural resources. I have downloaded some DEM files and other files from TNRIS but cant for the life of me figure out what to do with them. I have Carlson 2007 running in Autocad. I have gotten one of the files to come in and show some lines but they dont have any elevation associated with them.
One of the locations has an established BFE 3000' downstream in another county. This client would like to apply for a LOMA because he feels the property is not in the flood because it was not flooded in our major events from a couple of years ago.
I am finding myself lacking in this area as I spent too long in the public sector and in pipeline and didnt get enough exposure to elevation certs.
Any advice is appreciated
I'm involved with two just like that, same client. I told her to hire one of the well qualified hydrologists in town. This is well above my pay grade.
Darryl Beard, post: 438940, member: 11556 wrote: So I have had several elevation certs lately with no established BFE on the firm maps and no FIS profiles either. The counties they have been in cannot provide me with a community determined BFE. Fema tells me I can possibly get this from the C.O.E. or the Dept. of Natural resources. I have downloaded some DEM files and other files from TNRIS but cant for the life of me figure out what to do with them. I have Carlson 2007 running in Autocad. I have gotten one of the files to come in and show some lines but they dont have any elevation associated with them.
One of the locations has an established BFE 3000' downstream in another county. This client would like to apply for a LOMA because he feels the property is not in the flood because it was not flooded in our major events from a couple of years ago.
I am finding myself lacking in this area as I spent too long in the public sector and in pipeline and didnt get enough exposure to elevation certs.
Any advice is appreciated
If the FPA in the affected area cannot provide you a BFE you should advise your client that he/she needs to commission a flood study from a licensed engineer. Expensive, but anything less is a dis-service to client - without a BFE the thing is useless.
While Section E may be used for Zone A, be aware and also be sure to educate your client as to why the instructions to Section E include the following sentence:
"Buildings in Zone (without BFE) may qualify for a lower insurance rate if an engineered BFE is developed at the site."
I like to discuss with my clients that Zone A designations are a result of those studies of areas with low development density not receiving a funding level sufficient to perform the detail of topographic cross sectioning and hydrologic/hydraulic engineering analysis to get a high confidence statistical model. Instead these low development areas are studied using a variety of already available topographic mapping and watershed models to get a varying approximation of inundation limits.
I generally advise my clients that if Section E is used for insurance rating purposes, it likely will not provide much risk reduction credit nor insurance rate reduction. And if a Section E is used for LOMA purposes and results in a structure removal determination, that determination will only be based on some level of approximation which is unlikely representative of the true risk.
By coincidence I had an owner call earlier this week who said that they had just received a letter from their lender requiring them to get flood insurance based on a review of updated FIRM mapping. When I discussed that the property was in a zone A floodplane, the response I got was somewhat typical in that they didn't feel they were at risk as in the 20 years they owned the property, they had only seen the water get up to the house twice.
I then discussed the concepts of risk, assurance and insurance. They didn't want to pay for insurance, they didn't want to pay for the survey/engineering work to create a higher level of assurance. They felt those were risks they were willing to live with. I noted that their lender was apparently not willing to take that same risk with the bank's money.
Unfortunately for both the bank and the owner, a LOMA determination based on Section E approximation methods is not necessarily conveyed to the bank or future purchasers, leaving them possibly uninsured with a risk level higher than the LOMA determination reflects.
FrozenNorth, post: 438941, member: 10219 wrote: Unnumbered A Zones...where angels fear to tread. Don't know if this is legit or not, and I know you're not in VT, but this says FEMA will calc your BFE for you if less than 5 acres http://dec.vermont.gov/sites/dec/files/wsm/rivers/docs/rv_azonesurvey.pdf .
I've used this method successfully several times in Oregon... and for parcels larger than 5 acres.
I don't do elevation certificates these days, but whenever flood insurance comes up I always recommend this: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/as-federal-flood-insurance-rates-go-up-a-popular-private-insurance-alternative-is-saving-consumers-millions-300056413.html .
It's what I have on my own house (Zone AE), it's acceptable to my lender, it's about half the cost of NFIP insurance, and it covers earthquakes and mudslides, too. Not every local insurance broker handles it, but enough do.
Zone A's here are a very unprofessional product, they sometimes dont cover rivers and swamps, then they cover high banks and hillsides
Mike Hoover, post: 439027, member: 12911 wrote: If the FPA in the affected area cannot provide you a BFE you should advise your client that he/she needs to commission a flood study from a licensed engineer. Expensive, but anything less is a dis-service to client - without a BFE the thing is useless.
The FPA met us on-site the day I was there, and that was basically his suggestion about the engineer. Evidently my client had already gotten a quote in the ballpark of $30k for a no rise certificate...it must be alot more work than the what is cited in the link above. I'm not exactly keen on doing the cross sections either. That site is wooly and the creek is probably alot worse. Maybe in February...and still maybe not.
I filled out Section E and he got a quote on insurance he could live with...maybe that will settle the issue.
The other one had no structure on it and the county was requiring the certificate for building permits. I did a grid in the area he was wanting to build on and put HAG and LAG on it. Waited for the FPA in that county to finally tell me just to send it to them without a BFE and they will review it.
Thanks for all of the responses. I definitely am learning from this site.
clearcut, post: 439033, member: 297 wrote: While Section E may be used for Zone A, be aware and also be sure to educate your client as to why the instructions to Section E include the following sentence:
"Buildings in Zone (without BFE) may qualify for a lower insurance rate if an engineered BFE is developed at the site."
I like to discuss with my clients that Zone A designations are a result of those studies of areas with low development density not receiving a funding level sufficient to perform the detail of topographic cross sectioning and hydrologic/hydraulic engineering analysis to get a high confidence statistical model. Instead these low development areas are studied using a variety of already available topographic mapping and watershed models to get a varying approximation of inundation limits.
I generally advise my clients that if Section E is used for insurance rating purposes, it likely will not provide much risk reduction credit nor insurance rate reduction. And if a Section E is used for LOMA purposes and results in a structure removal determination, that determination will only be based on some level of approximation which is unlikely representative of the true risk.
By coincidence I had an owner call earlier this week who said that they had just received a letter from their lender requiring them to get flood insurance based on a review of updated FIRM mapping. When I discussed that the property was in a zone A floodplane, the response I got was somewhat typical in that they didn't feel they were at risk as in the 20 years they owned the property, they had only seen the water get up to the house twice.
I then discussed the concepts of risk, assurance and insurance. They didn't want to pay for insurance, they didn't want to pay for the survey/engineering work to create a higher level of assurance. They felt those were risks they were willing to live with. I noted that their lender was apparently not willing to take that same risk with the bank's money.
Unfortunately for both the bank and the owner, a LOMA determination based on Section E approximation methods is not necessarily conveyed to the bank or future purchasers, leaving them possibly uninsured with a risk level higher than the LOMA determination reflects.
Well stated and fairly typical. Hydrology and Hydraulics are usually way beyond the understanding of laymen, including many surveyors unfortunately.
Does anyone know whether the "Simplified Method" is allowed for coming up with a BFE on a single lot basis in approximate Zone A elevation certs? If not, what might be the reason for FEMA even defining something called "Simplified Method" for determining BFE? I admit I do not know the answer, but am interested in learning.
I. Ben Havin, post: 439134, member: 6834 wrote: Does anyone know whether the "Simplified Method" is allowed for coming up with a BFE on a single lot basis in approximate Zone A elevation certs? If not, what might be the reason for FEMA even defining something called "Simplified Method" for determining BFE? I admit I do not know the answer, but am interested in learning.
No it is not allowed for elev certs or LOMAs.
Its purpose is only for the use by community flood-plain managers for evaluating the level of risk present in areas designated for low density development.
I have often wondered what would happen if you simply made up a number that was clearly incorrect and insert that in the BFE box on the form. Eventually some FEMA worker is going to realize that you have committed some terrible typographical error because the number he already has access to disagrees with the number you inserted by something like 100 feet in elevation. It must be a typo, nobody would be off that far. Then the FEMA worker would send back the notice of acceptance/rejection and include the magic number he had access to all along. PROBLEM SOLVED.
We have elevations near here in the 800 and 900 range. If it's really 962, put in 862. If it's really 862, put in 962.
Holy Cow, post: 439205, member: 50 wrote: I have often wondered what would happen if you simply made up a number that was clearly incorrect and insert that in the BFE box on the form. Eventually some FEMA worker is going to realize that you have committed some terrible typographical error because the number he already has access to disagrees with the number you inserted by something like 100 feet in elevation. It must be a typo, nobody would be off that far. Then the FEMA worker would send back the notice of acceptance/rejection and include the magic number he had access to all along. PROBLEM SOLVED.
We have elevations near here in the 800 and 900 range. If it's really 962, put in 862. If it's really 862, put in 962.
That's not something I would attempt personally because, based on my luck (none at all), the reviewer would be asleep at the wheel, accept the error and something would end up being built and having to be demolished or be destroyed by a freak flood.
I'm not as savvy in EC's as I'd like to be, I do them but they are generally in coastal areas where there is a determined elevation and most are for house raising purposes as a result of the devastation caused by Hurricane Sandy here in NJ.
Immediately post hurricane I did an EC for my brother who's lender contacted him and required that he secure flood insurance to the tune of $600/month. His property was on the fringe of a flood zone with a small tributary touching the rear corner of his lot. The basement floor elevation was 12' higher than the BFE and having lived in the home through a few 100 yr storms and the hurricane with a lake directly across the street he never experienced any sort of flooding in the 20 years he lived there. The lender would hear none of that and stood their ground.
He was obviously looking for a solution to the issue and the best that I could come up with was to have an Engineering study done and apply for a LOMA. Even with my services and those of the engineers that I worked with being done at cost he was looking at $10K for the study and decided to do some searching on his own.
He spent some time Googling different things and came up with an Engineering firm in the Southwest that specializes in the very issue he was having and ended up paying them $1,500 to apply for a LOMA, I have no idea how they did the stream study with no feet on the ground but they were successful in getting my brother the modification and the insurance requirement went away in less than a year.