@rover83 are you running the Trimble sync thing. My boss has asked me to look into Trimble connect or Trimble sync what he wants is for me to manage the field crews up loads and downloads almost real-time. So we have a job that i as built a pipe lines. And i can reach out to the crew and get that job file and bring that in and take that and do some calcs to give a csv file back for the next layer of elevation change. And send the new csv file back for the crews second task. I make the crews already keep a different project folder and as many jobs as the want for different task. But each project is for that site. None of the one project folders for multiple sites. And right ow we have some old hands that thumb drive the data over others send via email others google cloud type thing. I am all over the place to put all the job or jxl files in the correct folders every morning from yesterdays work. On our server. I want them to be oblivious as some forget and some send in the am some send at night. Does this sync or connect thing somewhat automate. As they sleep at night.
I'm guessing Trimble charges a pretty penny for the luxury of not having to copy and paste into the server. I can see the point if it's time sensitive stuff and the office needs it asap all the time, but if I lay out some houses, someone will want the USF grade shots within a few days, maybe they will check my work, maybe not but they definitely aren't looking at the download the same day. Now that I have remote access to the server I do it before I leave the job then I don't forget. Before I had to do when I connected to the office WiFi from the parking lot.?ÿ
@OleManRiver Trimble Sync Manager is a front end for Trimble Connect. It builds Access jobs in Connect and uses those facilities to distribute the jobs. You can look at your files in either/both.
The idea is to build your jobs in Connect with Sync Manager and pass them to the controller(s). The jobs get worked on, and uploaded back in. Uploads back to server can be automated. You can, of course, still build jobs on the controller, and upload them too.
Sync keeps track of the files - so if an update is needed it can be sent out to those controllers that need it. You can pull a file out to work on, but you do need to put the changed file back. It is not clever enough to automagically know if changes have happened elsewhere.
Its a great way to distribute the jobs, and not have to worry what controller you are going to use and how you are going to get your data onto it. It also means the crew can grab any controller and be sure of having the data they need.
It is simple to setup, and you get a basic licence with Access.
Give it a try.
@jimcox Thank you. I am sure i will be doing that soon. So the key is keep project names identical and then any crew any controller can grab all they need or send all they need (job) files. If office side me makes any changes just send it back to the projects folder. Nice makes since to me. Just will have to figure out the work flow and give it a try. I have some old folks like me that are in field lifers that hate change so this might make it much easier. As i can get them set up and going. So if i make a project folder called. X Project and place csv dxf etc. they just can build a my jobsite job in that folder and have all i place and then i can upload that my jobsite job do whatever send it back or send back a new csv dxf ttm. And they are back in action again.
@350rocketmike well in the old days we had to drive back to office and use a cable lol. Before that it was paper no cable. My favorite was loose leaf field books. And add them to the binder each day.?ÿ
I have crews that are everywhere and may not ever be within a half a day??s drive at anytime to the office. So having the capability to near real-time grab or send data and not via email and such i can see once in place saves time. Yes a small amount of time maybe lets say its 30 seconds per job file for you to copy and paste a file to the server. And it takes 15 seconds the other way and you have skinny fingers and i have fat chubby ones so i make a few mistakes on copy paste. No fun. 15 seconds per job x??s X amount of jobs per year / cost per year. So a small time in motion study vs cost will be used to see of course but i will try thats r&d and if the cost to benefit ratio is right i submit that up the chain for approval. ?ÿ
I have 4 jobs now where i am doing a study of r12i vs r12 cost to productivity once i am done i will show time savings. Which alone per point is the difference between plumb and not plumbing the rod. First reaction is it takes same amount of time to take a topo shot. Plumbing rod is pointless ?ÿ Until you think about standing in say a only2 ft ditch and now have to step up to see bubble. Or use bubble on dc. But if i can stand i. One spot and just shoot top toe and top on a small ditch time adds up quickly and that X??s however many instances per crew per lifespan of equipment adds up. Then i add the Safety factor. I did this today standing next to a active road. With big trucks running. R12i leaning i was in a safe distance to shoot edge of pavement. If i had to plumb i was not?ÿ
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I will run the numbers. For sure. Added to my list now to get a quote. Do some r&d and then see what the numbers say. Weigh that against wants and needs.?ÿ
@350rocketmike when i was a young buck salesman had easy influence on me. The latest shining object. An old wise man when I would come in and say did you know that equipment can do this or that blah blah blah. He would say well how much is it worth. Not how much does it cost. Of course i would say how much it cost. ?ÿHe would say again how much is it worth. It took my thick skull a while to understand what he was trying to get me to think about. Now as any business man or woman will tell you that has half a brain is timing is a lot as well. I have worked part time and helped a number of friends of friends over the years. Usually as a crew chief helper or mentoring a new chief to get them to a new level. A day here a day there. I have seen many managers with great ideas things they want to implement. More often than not it??s an idea. The idea is only as good as its implementation. A good idea is useless if you can??t make it happen. They will walk in to the money folks board members etc. of a company and say we have to buy this we need this it??s awesome. The fail over and over again by reiterating the same talking points of the salesperson. Trimble Leica joe blows it doesn??t matter. The manufacturers are smart they understand the touches rule of sales. If the manager would take 1/4 of the energy of enthusiasm to test document and put some numbers to x item they would win more of those battles or not lose because they would understand the ROI. ?ÿYou have impressed me as you have sought answers to problems. You have grit it shows. You take my poorly worded and a 13.5 hr day and try and see what i am saying and put that in your watch pocket. Do your own experiments. I use to keep a stop watch around my neck. I would stake something one way then another try this try that. And do small little time in motion studies for different task. Not all day every day but randomly on projects that allowed me to. You will surprise yourself. Remember you will always be more productive on how your use to doing something so keep that variable in mind as you try it a different way. ?ÿI see you progressing beyond your current role timing is mostly up to you. Always good seeing someone struggling but not giving up and fighting through the issues for sure.?ÿ
you probably would not believe it but i bet if i had a 3 man crew laying out offsets on TBC top back of curb hub and tack. I had a regular total station and a steel tape and we had curves and tanjents. That i would be 1.5 x??s faster than you and a hub driver and your favorite robot. Every 25 ft. No way you could keep up. Now 3 people pay vs two man and robot with all adds up. Robot is great but not because its faster it cost the owner less in payroll taxes training etc etc. manufacturers might not admit that but they are in the selling business and they understand the cost and salary range the cost of employees above their salary. They price the equipment and design to that plus they make profit. A good thing not bad. We make a profit a good thing not bad. Now also one more variable. Two hammers one cost 20$ more than the other. Do you buy the cheap one or more expensive one both are equal in durability etc. only difference is say the grip. One guy has big hands other small. He sais i like this one it fits my small hands better. Bean counter buys the cheapest one. The leader weighs the cost and says buy him the one he wants he works hard he needs the comfort. ?ÿThats simplification of a issue. But the leader weighs that. The bean counter does not. You will work for both. Both are right both are wrong at times. Timing is a lot.?ÿ
wish i had a chance to hire you. And give you a opportunity. But you are going to be fine. That grit will take you far. Just keep feeding that knowledge as well.?ÿ
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I have 4 jobs now where i am doing a study of r12i vs r12 cost to productivity once i am done i will show time savings. Which alone per point is the difference between plumb and not plumbing the rod.
For me the big bonus is in stakeout. I am just SO much quicker with the inertia unit on.
And the safety aspect is a genuine bonus for every one.
But it does teach sloppy habits, and you do have to remember to level up for conventional observations...
@jimcox Stake out is slick. It has saved me walking or driving to another point to check in for sure. I take and get the I man let him get the robot set up etc. and i am right with him to make sure he gets squared away. I check into the point he is set up on. Lol. Then kinda send him off to do his task and i do mine. So a one man crew became a two one man crews for certain things.?ÿ
i do agree it can teach sloppy habits. And it will not take long before a survey bubble on a rod will be pointless and not understood. ?ÿSame with robots. I requested a total station so every i man has to sit and stand behind that all day turning angles and distance and locking and un locking the tanjent screws lol. Running out of threads. ?ÿBut they said nope. ?ÿI have a crew chief and two i men that have never used one. Only the robot and rtk. I man crew chief are titles that don??t have the same talents as it use to. Maybe crew chief is closer but i man. What do you do now. Set up gun. Hold data collector and type codes maybe if crew chief lets you. Crazy how things have changed. ?ÿ
A good idea is useless if you can??t make it happen.
A corollary is "A great workflow is useless if the operators don't use it."
This is true for the cloud project workflow. The office software (Sync Manager) is not complex, and it's easy to learn. However, it does require both office and field staff to actually use it.
In the office, it takes about 3-5 minutes to create a cloud project, add your team, and drop reference files on the cloud. We have simple ASCII files with team members grouped by office and region, it's just cut & paste.
Field staff just use Access as usual, only rather than everyone running around with a different project and manually moving files around, they will be running off the same cloud project with the same reference files. They just start a new job under that project when needed, and all jobs from crews on that project go back to the cloud in the same place for office staff to download.
When our crews get on site, they first open the cloud project, and sync their controllers if necessary. For design topos and boundary work, they might get a CSV of search points, a DXF of calculated property lines, a DXF of the topo limits, and maybe a project template (JXL) with embedded control from a previous project in it.
For construction work, the cloud project is even more useful. We have a master template with the coordinate system (often a ground or custom system that may or may not have a site calibration) already set up, and all our control points embedded. We will update this template as necessary. A point gets taken out by a grader? We'll remove it from the template. Set some new control? We'll adjust it and add it to the template. Same with reference files for staking - they get updated when needed, and crews sync their collector when needed. Everyone has the same information.
Crews can pull each others' jobs off the cloud and link them to see what others have done. They can even work in each others' jobs, although that comes with its own set of possible problems.
At the end of the day, crews just change the status of their job to "field work complete" and office staff pull it off the cloud using Sync Manager.
The biggest roadblock I have seen in the ~18 months of use is just people not paying attention. Office staff forget to create a cloud project, then crews don't bother to call and ask for one to be created, then someone in the office suddenly remembers and creates a project with a slightly different name. It's not difficult to reconcile the data, but for some reason a few extra minutes is unbearable to the same folks who used to spend hours trying to figure out why two crews have different files, or why one has an extra control point and why their backsight check doesn't work.
Crazy how things have changed. ?ÿ
And not changed also
The weather is still (sort of) the same
The hills are just as steep
Its just the measuring that is getting easier
@jimcox lol yes and don??t forget yellow jackets are always in the ground where you cut line or set a control point. Everyone who stops by to ask you directions has either surveyed or has a friend or relative that has. Ladies somehow always want to show you things they should not in a parking lot. And no matter how simple a job seems murphy is right around the corner to change everything.
@rover83 thank you. That is very helpful information. ?ÿI can see that as useful and i see what you mean about using someone elses job that could cause hard aches. But the fact i can link to someone elses job to see what they did is very good. I see i need to take a little time to develop project naming conventions. And such. But the cost ratio once i know that will determine how many brain storming sessions i need lol. Seems off the top is maybe a abbreviation of office location and state then job or project #. Then maybe a description. Follow the accounting side a little and what already is being done and off to the races. But i am only on my 3rd cup of coffee this morning so i am not running on all cylinders yet lol.
@jimcox?ÿ
How often do these need to be calibrated? Our crews have all turned off the IMU as far as I know because it wouldn't stay in calibration long enough to be worth it. The bubble in the pole has to be checked anyway, so it seems like whatever time the IMU might save is used up recalibrating it all the time?
I have the original r10 so it's just the e bubble which I also turned off since it couldn't stay calibrated. I'll spend that time checking the pole bubble instead since I have to be sure it's good before calibrating the e bubble.?ÿ
@350rocketmike At another company they had a R10 and they struggled to keep the ebubble and magnetic compensator routine in calibration. ?ÿI ended up watching as they would do one part right next to huge metal objects like vans trucks buildings etc. ?ÿI had never ran a R10 before and we often checked the rod bubble and e bubble we??re never in agreement. I knew that metal iron affects magnetic compasses so I started reading and figured out that they had never truly ran the routines for calibration on the r10 and they did part of it in the worst location ever next to a big metal building vans trucks under high power power lines etc. ?ÿSo tye next time out i said let me run this thing. I was only part time so he said sure. I went through the whole routine spinning flopping all that mess. He said he had ran that unit for a year or two and never made it through a day without having issues. I made it several days of no issues at all. It has been a minute but their is a setting of how often it needs it in access. Just fyi.?ÿ
on R12i. I am no expert but have rented it now several times. ?ÿThe imu has never given me a problem. It does loose imu if you are not initialized for a time or in area where rms values are higher than normal aka multipath environment etc. I was told in canopy or hostile environment imu should be turned off so i have followed that advice. Whenever i am doing observed control point observations I manually turn it off and use a known rod bubble. I did a test yesterday on a storm basin structure. I did observe control points on 4 corners of concrete at the grate. I had to crawl my old rump up. Lol. About 6ft above ground. I came back after a few hours just playing with the imu on those same corners and i was using vrs not base and rover and bad part of the day. Gps glonass only. ?ÿI was tilted way more than 30 degrees as i am 5.8? tall and reached up set tip and did topo point on those corners. All except 1 were under a tenth squaring the difference in North and East elevation was at highest on all 4 .075. ?ÿFt. One corner on delta n and east had a chip so I missed it by .17 horizontal. When i was up top observe control point method vs tilt from ground i know i was not in same location. ?ÿ
I have checked and rechecked that imu on building corners house corners with taping and reflector shots. With base and rover every one of those shots fall withen the rms ?ÿvalues that and imu values that are in the raw files. In my opinion with limited use it falls within the specs for any given shot that is stated at the time. At 95% i bring everything in tbc and do the spreadsheet thing and do a little math. So I believe Trimble is reporting it correctly. Now i had one a .25 from taping. But the rms was that high in 3d per 95%. Confidence.?ÿ
I have ran head to head against a younger faster crew chief using imu vs robot. It only takes 1 extra set up for the robot to be moved before the rtk out perfoms. A robot that does not have to be moved will beat the rtk because it measures faster but the time to move to a new set up or lots of things in line of site rtk wins for mapping especially with imu. It took years of watching a bubble for me to say why am i leveling. I even caught myself yesterday on ground shots muscle memory leveling. ?ÿNow that all is in gps friendly environment. Of course it will take longer if no initialized. I am sure other manufacturers that have the same capabilities will do the same also. Leica has a pole for robot that does this and what a genius thing. No offsets needed when a tree is online just plumb the rod out.?ÿ
now we all who have been surveying will cheat and lean our prism over a point to get a location on something that a tip can??t get on so be careful if you are using imu. I caught myself leaning the gps head over a fence corner. Well imu was on so it gave me the position to where my tip was lol. Thankfully I caught it. And deleted the bad shot. So it is a little learning curve on breaking the old muscle memory and tricks. But heck it has made me a believer on many occasions. The job i did yesterday would have taken 3 set ups period. I did everything with rtk. Only 1 shot is bad. And i forced it. As i just needed to show a direction and approximate distance to an out fall pipe. It was in heavy canopy. I even called the ls and said hey here is my situation am i thinking correctly and he said yeah we don??t have to locate that it would just be nice. ?ÿIt is basically just a volume on pond itself. Nothing else. Except a few other items on the site the requested.?ÿ
What I've found is the IMU doesn't go out of calibration very often but the stupid e-bubble does.?ÿ The thing that annoys me is I get a warning about the rod being out of level if the e-bubble is out of calibration even if the e-bubble is shut off.
The thing that annoys me is I get a warning about the rod being out of level if the e-bubble is out of calibration even if the e-bubble is shut off.
That suggests you actually still have the eBubble enabled, just not showing.
@bstrand?ÿ
I will admit I only tried it once. I had heard from all the other crews that it was useless, so I didn't bother for a bit. Finally on a day I wasn't rushed I calibrated it, out in the open, near no metal buildings. It worked fine for that job, a few hours use. The next time I used GPS was a few days later and it was way off again, so I didn't bother.
It annoys me the thing always telling me off level and I'm like "No, you're off level!"
I was able to completely disable the e bubble so it doesn't give the warning anymore.?ÿ
Now I just need to find the right screwdriver to adjust the bubble in the mt1000 since Trimble couldn't be bothered to adjust it or any of their bubbles properly before shipping them out. It's not like these things are expensive right?
The next time I used GPS was a few days later and it was way off again,
That's one big hint that your gps has been dropped. Some crews are more careful than others.
Also if you can't get the pole an ebubble to reliably match - the pole may well be bent (&& for the same reason)
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@jimcox?ÿ
I know the pole isn't bent because it's plumb in every direction. The GPS has certainly been dropped in the past as I can see signs of it in the way of physical damage to the top....unless you mean it's been dropped since the e bubble was calibrated, cause it hasn't been dropped since I got it.?ÿ
The e bubble worked fine for that whole short job, it just wasn't calibrated again next time it got used. Since other crews were complaining about it on the e bubble and IMU I just assumed it was normal and never bothered to use it again.?ÿ
....unless you mean it's been dropped since the e bubble was calibrated
That's it exactly, Mike.
The ebubble is actually pretty rugged and reliable. But they are subject to shock.?ÿ
In my experience, the times you find them suddenly 'off' is after the gps has hit the ground.
