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Need help figuring out where property lines are.

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(@Anonymous)
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Hey guys, I work in construction and I do mostly machine control and laying out where the buildings go etc.
But sometimes I run into a job where nobody knows where the property lines are, nobody has a copy of an official boundary survey with any useful information telling me where the boundary SHOULD be, and the corners are not physically marked(or at least I can't find them because I don't know where to look).

How do you guys figure out where they should be? Is it as easy as going to the local county records office and seeing if they have a copy of it, if so, is that public information that anyone can go and get, or only the owner of the land?

I'm not licensed as a surveyor and im not looking to set any rods or anything, I just need to know where the boundary is so I can stay inside of it.

I have a feeling you guys are going to tell me that I need to hire a licensed surveyor to come and mark them for me, but I figured it doesn't hurt to ask.

Thanks.

 
Posted : 14/05/2019 6:18 am
(@va-ls-2867)
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I am a licensed surveyor that works for a heavy highway/site contractor.?ÿ My primary function is creating machine control models and earthwork quantification.?ÿ The company subcontracts surveyors to establish control and provide fine grade layout services on all of our projects.?ÿ Even though I can provide those functions, this is the way the company wants to operate.?ÿ I would suggest in your case, have a surveyor provide you with the necessary control for your project.?ÿ Most states rules outline boundary determination falls under the definition of land surveying.?ÿ You could poke around and find corner markers, but you wouldn't have a legal standing if those markers were incorrect and you relied on them as boundary markers.

 
Posted : 14/05/2019 6:32 am
(@norman-oklahoma)
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Exactly that. You should hire an LS. The information is (mostly) public record, but it isn't always tied up in a neat little bow at a government office somewhere. It frequently needs to be pieced together.?ÿ And then it needs to be related to what is on the ground. Just finding a rod somewhere - maybe it's the corner, maybe it isn't.

You build a building, you have many specialists providing input. Architects, engineers, excavators, concrete formwork, framers, electricians, plumbers, mechanical, finish carpenters, roofers, and so on....the surveyor is another member of that team.?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿYou wouldn't think of asking the electrician?ÿ how to wire things up, would you?

But to answer your question directly - you get the deed for the property from the county recorder and follow the trail from there. By the time you get to the middle you may understand why there are more BMWs in an excavating company's parking lot than in the surveyor's.

 
Posted : 14/05/2019 6:34 am
(@warren-smith)
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That information should already be on a properly prepared site plan.?ÿ That is, the boundary and control points should have already been established prior to project approval.

Emphasis on should.

 
Posted : 14/05/2019 7:12 am
(@dmyhill)
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Posted by: ChrisH

I'm not licensed as a surveyor and im not looking to set any rods or anything, I just need to know where the boundary is so I can stay inside of it.

I have a feeling you guys are going to tell me that I need to hire a licensed surveyor to come and mark them for me, but I figured it doesn't hurt to ask.

?ÿ

"Where the boundary is" = the expertise of a Professional Land Surveyor.?ÿ At this point almost anyone can measure things precisely (as seen by the super on a site handing a guy a range pole and a rover and having them do construction layout), but you need a surveyor to figure out the boundary. It isn't rocket science (I mean I do it), but it isn't always simple.

Had a buddy that thought a surveyor was expensive, until he built a multi-million dollar house in the wrong spot.

 
Posted : 14/05/2019 7:13 am
(@bill93)
Posts: 9834
 

Unfortunately, just finding a rerod doesn't mean you've always found the corner.?ÿ Sometimes there will be a rerod marking the beginning of a curve that is near enough to the lot corner to confuse things.?ÿ Sometimes lot corners on one side of the rear lot line will be offset only a small amount from the lot corners on the other side.?ÿ Sometimes a rerod has been dug out during installation of utilities and that crew stuck it back "about where it was." Sometimes there are multiple pipes and rerods near a corner (see recent threads on "pincushions") and somebody needs to bet their liability insurance coverage on choosing the right one.

 
Posted : 14/05/2019 7:16 am
(@freefallin1309)
Posts: 38
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Posted by: ChrisH

Hey guys, I work in construction and I do mostly machine control and laying out where the buildings go etc.
But sometimes I run into a job where nobody knows where the property lines are, nobody has a copy of an official boundary survey with any useful information telling me where the boundary SHOULD be, and the corners are not physically marked(or at least I can't find them because I don't know where to look).

How do you guys figure out where they should be? Is it as easy as going to the local county records office and seeing if they have a copy of it, if so, is that public information that anyone can go and get, or only the owner of the land?

I'm not licensed as a surveyor and im not looking to set any rods or anything, I just need to know where the boundary is so I can stay inside of it.

I have a feeling you guys are going to tell me that I need to hire a licensed surveyor to come and mark them for me, but I figured it doesn't hurt to ask.

Thanks.

Definitely hire a LS, if only to cover the asses of both you and the company. Too much liability that will be squarley on your shoulders.?ÿ If it's wrong, it's your fault, and you and/or your company will have to pay damages. Ask yourself if you can afford the mistake(s).?ÿ Like you, I am not licensed. But I own my own business, and only do fieldwork as a subcontractor, which is legal in my state as long as I dont pass myself off as a surveyor, nor do surveying. An LS still signs off on anything I do. I personally will not tell anyone where their boundary is, ever. I hand my fieldwork off to a LS to be signed, then the client will be told by the actual signed survey, and/or physically where the boundary is, but that info won't come from me.?ÿ ?ÿ But on a side note, if you still wish to press your luck, and take liability, you can search online at your local county property appraiser site and look up the info there, but dot your "I"s and cross your "T"s and watch what you say, and to whom?ÿ?ÿ

 
Posted : 14/05/2019 9:42 am
 Joe
(@one-cup-o-joe)
Posts: 240
Customer
 

Warren, as you say it should be there on the plans. If not, send it back. A layout man should NOT have to guess where the layout should go. How can projects gets so far without someone knowing where the real property corners are!

I have had Architects layout buildings using rectangles even when I have supplied the boundary that shows that it is not. Around here they even use the tax lot maps for dimensions and ASS U ME the lot has square corners, idiots.

 
Posted : 14/05/2019 10:11 am
(@scott-ellis)
Posts: 1181
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   I like that word rerod. Next time I have to reset a property corner instead of saying set, I am going to use rerodded the corner. 

 
Posted : 14/05/2019 1:04 pm
(@bill93)
Posts: 9834
 

Sorry about that.?ÿ I know that rebar is the more accepted term on this forum, but didn't slow down to thnk.?ÿ I do find both used in a Google search. but rebar is the more common term.

 
Posted : 14/05/2019 2:10 pm
(@just-a-surveyor)
Posts: 1945
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If you're in Alabama or Georgia I can help you.

 
Posted : 14/05/2019 2:44 pm
(@bstrand)
Posts: 2272
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Posted by: ChrisH

Hey guys, I work in construction and I do mostly machine control and laying out where the buildings go etc.
But sometimes I run into a job where nobody knows where the property lines are, nobody has a copy of an official boundary survey with any useful information telling me where the boundary SHOULD be, and the corners are not physically marked(or at least I can't find them because I don't know where to look).

How do you guys figure out where they should be? Is it as easy as going to the local county records office and seeing if they have a copy of it, if so, is that public information that anyone can go and get, or only the owner of the land?

I'm not licensed as a surveyor and im not looking to set any rods or anything, I just need to know where the boundary is so I can stay inside of it.

I have a feeling you guys are going to tell me that I need to hire a licensed surveyor to come and mark them for me, but I figured it doesn't hurt to ask.

Thanks.

Yep!?ÿ Well, that and the $65,000 base and rover.

 
Posted : 14/05/2019 3:15 pm
(@am95405)
Posts: 72
Registered
 

I am not a surveyor, but a student (older student) studying land surveying. The surveyors here have suggested you hire a surveyor, which of course gives you the most reliable result, to be sure not to build where one should not be building. But I'll answer your question from a student's standpoint who just had to do some research for homework. Perhaps it is of some value to you.

Where I live our County Recorder's office has plats/maps. They have a row of computers in their office and you can view these maps for free on their computers. To get a paper or electronic copy, you pay $4 to $8 (or something like, I don't remember the exact prices). You can get the same maps from home electronically for less $, but you can't view them. If you know exactly what you want, it's cheaper to buy from home, or get on your cell phone while sitting in the recorder's office. But they can print it for you on large paper, which is nice.

Now I live within City Limits. Our City's website makes the same maps available online, for free!! They don't have as much historical data it seems as the County Recorder (for tracing title or boundaries back), but they did have a surprising amount. And I didn't have to pay, and I could do it from my desk at home.

Our neighboring County's Recorder website is nicer than ours; you can see little snapshots of the maps at home (ours just says it exists), but again, you do pay to buy them. But it may save you a trip to their offices, which generally are 8-5, M-F.

Our department of transportation (Caltrans) has lots of highway right of way maps online for free. If the property you are doing work on is next to a main road, you can check the documentation available from your DOT for their right-of-ways.

https://caltrans.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=04efb9a9f14c4da2aabd9ce36b7dda48

It was my experience that it was very helpful to have an APN or parcel number when searching. Zillow was fantastic for this, at least for residential properties, which I searched. It's very easy. I don't know how it works for commercial property; the county assessor can probably give you the parcel number.?ÿ If you know GIS, the county's GIS database often has parcel numbers for addresses.?ÿ Assessor's parcel maps, which are often available for free, have APN #s too. Some data I could find with APN #s, some with last names.

I also have an app on my phone called onX Hunt (it's for hunters, I'm not one). It's great for finding property owner names and APN #s. You don't need to buy the paid version either. Just be clever with the free version.

Also, a lesson that has been drilled into me at school is research the adjoiners. So if you're working on a site and pulling the maps for that site, consider pulling the maps for the neighboring sites too that share borders.?ÿ Get the APN# for the adjoiners.

In the stack of maps I got for my subdivision, the boundaries/distance/bearings were on some pages, the setback lines on other pages. So look through the whole thing, including corrections.

All this information is available to any member of the public. You can just walk into their office during business hours (or use the online tools) and search any property. So it's not limited to the land owner.

Good luck!

 
Posted : 14/05/2019 3:44 pm
(@trimbleman)
Posts: 41
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Normally there is a boundary performed in the first stages of a development. I think in your case best bet is to go to general contractor and let them know with out property corners being marked there's nothing you can do to establish horizontal location. When he throws a fit and rolls his eyes and says sure there's manholes and a shed you can measure off of,?ÿ you pull out your prints and politely ask him to sign off on that. At least if they call the surveyor that did boundary and probably topo they will come out at a minimal price to mark them.?ÿ

I'm a Surveyor and if I go to a site that isn't done by my company and I don't find any evidence of corners the last thing I want to do is spend 3 days doing a survey for free because I only bid a day for horizontal control. So you bet I'm gonna track down the general and get him making some calls.

 
Posted : 15/05/2019 1:12 am
(@scott-ellis)
Posts: 1181
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Bill,   I do like the word rerod its the first time I have seen it. I just told the crew to add some more rods in the truck in case we need to rerod any corners today. We had plenty in the truck, but I needed a reason to use the word.

 
Posted : 15/05/2019 3:03 am