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Moved Monuments.

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(@j-penry)
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The Bettendorf issue I started now has a few sidetracks going, so I thought I'd start a specific topic.

I agree that I would want people to rely upon my monuments, after all that is why I get paid and the monuments are there for the landowners use. But suppose a period of time passes and things happen that you are not aware even took place. A utility company puts in some pedestals and removes your monument. They, or a landowner finds the loose monument with your cap on it and randomly drives it into the ground. If you have never personally known this to happen then you have not been surveying enough yet.

Or suppose one neighbor doesn't like the location of the corner and moves it when the house next door becomes vacant and for sale. The new owner isn't the wiser. There are a number of other issues.

Now suppose a city worker comes along and finds your monument that has been moved and tells the owner that is his corner location. A house gets built over the setback line or an expensive fence placed in the wrong location. When things get all heated, how are you going to prove that the monument that moved wasn't placed by you in the wrong location despite your distances stating otherwise. The city worker says he just merley found YOUR monument that YOU set wrong hoping to shift the liability on to you.

Every one of us should be in total agreement that only surveyors should be making a determination on where property lines are located. Bettendorf is a long ways away from me, but I am willing to help the surveyors in that community just like I hope they would be doing the same for any of us.

 
Posted : June 23, 2011 10:24 am
(@carl-b-correll)
Posts: 1910
 

> The Bettendorf issue I started now has a few sidetracks going, so I thought I'd start a specific topic.
>
> I agree that I would want people to rely upon my monuments, after all that is why I get paid and the monuments are there for the landowners use. But suppose a period of time passes and things happen that you are not aware even took place. A utility company puts in some pedestals and removes your monument. They, or a landowner finds the loose monument with your cap on it and randomly drives it into the ground. If you have never personally known this to happen then you have not been surveying enough yet.
>
> Or suppose one neighbor doesn't like the location of the corner and moves it when the house next door becomes vacant and for sale. The new owner isn't the wiser. There are a number of other issues.
>
> Now suppose a city worker comes along and finds your monument that has been moved and tells the owner that is his corner location. A house gets built over the setback line or an expensive fence placed in the wrong location. When things get all heated, how are you going to prove that the monument that moved wasn't placed by you in the wrong location despite your distances stating otherwise. The city worker says he just merley found YOUR monument that YOU set wrong hoping to shift the liability on to you.
>
> Every one of us should be in total agreement that only surveyors should be making a determination on where property lines are located. Bettendorf is a long ways away from me, but I am willing to help the surveyors in that community just like I hope they would be doing the same for any of us.

Jerry,

As with everything else in surveying... the answer is a variation of "it depends". Pure and simple, I don't the city understands the larger ball of wax that can be created by their "good hearted/civic" actions.

I agree that there has to be a "line in the sand" as to when landowners and inspectors and such can just blindly trust and use the monuments in the ground -vs- calling a surveyor every time they want to rebuild a section of fence or make an addition to a deck. But, I don't want to be the one to say where that line is... send me that type of work all day!!

 
Posted : June 23, 2011 10:38 am
(@tbone)
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In the counties that I work in, I have never known of any of the county employees/inspectors recovering property corners. They have always told the owners or builders to contact a surveyor to confirm the correct location of the property corners.

 
Posted : June 23, 2011 11:04 am
(@jbstahl)
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>... But suppose a period of time passes and things happen that you are not aware even took place. A utility company puts in some pedestals and removes your monument. They, or a landowner finds the loose monument with your cap on it and randomly drives it into the ground. ... Or suppose one neighbor doesn't like the location of the corner and moves it when the house next door becomes vacant and for sale. The new owner isn't the wiser. There are a number of other issues.
>
We can envision all sorts of things that might happen after the surveyor sets the monument and walks away. We have no control over them, so there's no sense in worrying ourselves over them. They're place for the purpose of marking the boundary. When stuff happens, it's a matter of intent. Was there fraud, malice or deceit involved? Is a neighbor attempting to steal a portion of his neighbor's land by moving a monument? The law frowns heavily on that and won't feel sorry for the perpetrator at all if they must restore the land stolen.

> Now suppose a city worker comes along and finds your monument that has been moved and tells the owner that is his corner location. A house gets built over the setback line or an expensive fence placed in the wrong location.
>
Could be an owner, contractor, utility company, or a city worker. All are in the same class as those who commonly rely upon survey monuments to perform their duty. There's nothing special, in my estimation, about it being a city worker. It's all about the monument making a representation, based upon the professional opinion of a surveyor, and normal reliance placed upon that representation by a party who is likely to rely upon it. It is the act of reliance that can, and often will, establish the boundary location. When the monument relied upon is later discovered to have not been in the proper place, it may be too late to fix the position, but might not be too late to recover for damages caused.

>When things get all heated, how are you going to prove that the monument that moved wasn't placed by you in the wrong location despite your distances stating otherwise. The city worker says he just merely found YOUR monument that YOU set wrong hoping to shift the liability on to you.
>
That's what field notes and raw data are for. That's the surveyor's only defense against such a claim. I can, through my field notes, prove the method used to set the point and the method used to check its location. I can prove where I set my point. If it was moved after I set it, it's beyond my control and I'm not responsible. (You do all have field notes or raw data, right?)

We can't protect the world from themselves and we can't impose our services upon the world. We can only promote our services as the best solution toward preventing problems.

JBS

 
Posted : June 23, 2011 11:20 am
(@bill93)
Posts: 9834
 

For those who think it takes a licensed surveyor to recover those corner stakes before the homeowner and city inspector rely on them, tell me how long after the surveyor recovers them does the determination "expires" and the surveyor need to come back?

If it is three days later, I hope we all agree they are still good absent any obvious tampering. After 20 years, much more debatable, but not everyone says it takes a surveyor. But where's your own opinion of the cutoff date or conditions?

 
Posted : June 23, 2011 11:30 am
(@jim-oneil)
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As Municipal employee, I will not verify any monuments for residents.

Yes I locate them and make sure that they fit record for any work that I do but I do not let the residents know that "yes that is your corner"!!!!

I always refer them to hire a Licensed Land Surveyor to determine their lot boundaries.

I cannot understand why the city would want to take on the liability by having hte "inspectors" stating that the "pin" is the corner and go ahead and build to it.

As stated in this thread, " how do they know it has not been moved since the Surveyor set it".

Just my 2 cents.

😉

 
Posted : June 23, 2011 11:30 am
(@guest)
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If you have never personally known this to happen then you have not been surveying enough yet.

Amen.

And you don't have to be surveying long before you go out to do a lot survey and find, say, a 3/4" iron pipe at one corner, a 5/8" rebar at another, a 1" solid pin at another, and an axle with a punch mark. No caps or other ID, of course. So you just dig 'em up, flag 'em and drive off, right? Well, that would qualify you to be a city inspector in Bettendorf.

Of course any property owner can survey his own property, pull his own teeth, set his own broken arm, etc. That is not the issue.

What is a homeowner to make of someone pulling up in a city truck, and getting out wearing a city ID, and carrying a pin finder, a shovel, and a rag tape? Looks pretty official, huh? There is definitely a potential misrepresentation of official capacity and legal authority.

 
Posted : June 23, 2011 11:42 am
(@jbstahl)
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That's kind of like asking, "how close is close enough," or "how far is too far," Bill... ;o)

There just isn't an answer.

JBS

 
Posted : June 23, 2011 11:52 am
(@sacker2)
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If someone is recovering field monumentation and identifying them as property corners, that IS practicing surveying. I can only relate to my states statues but that would be illegal... for now... unless our Governor Rick Scott gets his way...

 
Posted : June 23, 2011 12:05 pm
(@gene-baker)
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I believe this is an issue that will resolve its self. The very scenario you describe will happen at some point and improvements will be built in the wrong spot. I am not sure if the surveyor will take a hit or not, but you can bet the city will change their policy and get out of the surveying business. For them to being doing it now, tells me Bettendorf needs some better leadership. I live in a bull-hunk town of 200 people with city manager that makes $8 an hour and he has enough sense to tell residents to get a surveyor if they’re going to build something.

 
Posted : June 23, 2011 12:34 pm
(@james-fleming)
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> ...with city manager that makes $8 an hour ....

Woo hoo, 75 cents over minimum wage

 
Posted : June 23, 2011 12:37 pm
(@david-livingstone)
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Anybody who thinks its O.K. for the city to locate property corners hasn't worked in this area much. I am licensed in Iowa, but I don't do a lot of surveying there. I do know enough that it is like my area, that most of the time when property gets bought and sold, it doesn't get surveyed. I'm sure there are newer subdivsions where most the of the corners are in place, but I'm also sure that there are parts of the the town that are older, there is a lot of junk in the ground, and very few of the monuments are capped.

I agree there is no set time for when a surveyor needs to check that a monument hasn't moved. Thats why the state of Iowa defines what surveying is, the board sent them a letter saying they were breaking the rules. What more do you need? Do the city workers get to ignore traffic laws also? They need to follow the rules like everyone else. It seems very cut and dry to me, there is no gray area here!

 
Posted : June 23, 2011 1:27 pm
(@marc-anderson)
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My immediate problem is the real possibility that a PC or PT will be recovered instead of the corner because the curve control will still have caps on them but certainly won't be corners.

 
Posted : June 23, 2011 3:13 pm
(@jbstahl)
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> My immediate problem is the real possibility that a PC or PT will be recovered instead of the corner because the curve control will still have caps on them but certainly won't be corners.

I've had that happen within two days of setting lot corners. Fence contractor used the PC which was only three feet from the lot corner. Finally was able to convince the inspector that setting the PC's wasn't a good idea. Staked only the lot corners for the rest of the development and still insist on it. Prior to that, "they made me do it."

JBS

 
Posted : June 23, 2011 4:10 pm
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(@nate-the-surveyor)
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Or, you could use a different monument type.

N

 
Posted : June 23, 2011 4:18 pm
(@a-harris)
Posts: 8761
 

The scenario you mention was a topic brought up when electronic data collectors were introduced.

When they came into use, it was noted that it was so easy to check our recently set monuments by taking a sideshot and establish an electronic record in our raw data of where and when.

I've used that procedure since I got my first data collector. Takes very little time.

It is not that uncommon to find 2 or more point numbers with almost identical coords at any of my corners in a cad file.
cp - calculated point
ssm - sideshot on set monument
248/627 - deed call
1/2RB OOPS - monument out of place
1/2RB corner - use this Pt# - will also be in a circle or square on my hardcopy worksheet.

The raw data file will provide proof to save you if you have an encounter with a moved monument.

 
Posted : June 23, 2011 4:49 pm
(@jim-oneil)
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Here in NH for most town(not all) lot corner by town or city regs are Iron pins with cap set.
For PC PT ROW monuments granite or concrete bounds 4" by 4" by 36" min are required.

So it is easy for the surveyor by not so much the city inspector.

I work full time for Nashua NH and I will tell you they all think they know what is going on.
They do not!!!!!

I am constantly fighting with city hall and you know how far that gets you.

Ok......Rant off.

Enjoy your Friday, of to a seminar regarding utilities nd the such put on by the State Society.

So you on Monday.

Jim in NH

 
Posted : June 23, 2011 5:26 pm
(@duane-frymire)
Posts: 1924
 

For closings, the Title companies require a map date within 30 days, at least that used to be the case around here. That's why clients many times disliked the surveyor even more, because the title company would not order a survey or let the client know they needed one until 3-4 weeks before closing. Then of course they had to put off closing a couple weeks until a survey could be provided. It was all the surveyors fault of course.

But the solution is easy. Require a surveyor perform the construction staking for the fence or addition or whatever. Property monuments are really not meant to be relied on for all subsequent construction activity. Whether they're in the correct location or not, they don't give enough information. If you can afford a fence you can afford a construction survey to make sure it's in the right place. If doing it right is too costly, then get rid of the regulation and let people build wherever they want to. Sort it out afterwards with attorneys and surveyors. I wonder which method will cost the landowner more?

 
Posted : June 24, 2011 4:08 am
(@dave-karoly)
Posts: 12001
 

I agree.

I store the sideshot on everything I set.

 
Posted : June 24, 2011 6:43 am