Notifications
Clear all

Monuments move, landowners lose: A surveyor‰Ûªs dirty little secret

47 Posts
20 Users
0 Reactions
198 Views
(@derek-g-graham-ols-olip)
Posts: 2060
Member
Topic starter
 

Misguided author ?

http://personalliberty.com/monuments-move-landowners-lose-a-surveyors-dirty-little-secret/

Derek

 
Posted : March 20, 2016 7:36 am
dave-karoly
(@dave-karoly)
Posts: 12001
Member
 

Gotta find my "rudder and sail."

 
Posted : March 20, 2016 7:40 am
(@tom-adams)
Posts: 3453
Member
 

Wow.....and he names the surveyor by name. And some kind of collusion between them and the professional engineers and surveyors? Someone needs to write an article about reporters prosecuting professionals in the public eye with no trial or defense of the prosecuted. He could ruin this guys business. It should at least be investigated first by boundary experts.

 
Posted : March 20, 2016 7:48 am
adam
 adam
(@adam)
Posts: 1163
Supporter
 

Yep, I carried away a hundred acres in my pocket last week. Like Johnny Cash, I got it one piece at a time!

 
Posted : March 20, 2016 7:54 am
dave-karoly
(@dave-karoly)
Posts: 12001
Member
 

The paranoid, Sky-is-falling comments are funny, well maybe sad, before the Internet it was harder to feed your paranoia and less widespread or at least visible.

The practice he complains about is not new, it's part of the American psyche. I have notes from 1880 where the surveyor pincushions the "apparent center of section" stake.

 
Posted : March 20, 2016 7:55 am

(@tom-adams)
Posts: 3453
Member
 

I couldn't help myself but post in his comments section. We don't even know that this surveyor is actually doing what that guy says he is.

 
Posted : March 20, 2016 7:59 am
dave-karoly
(@dave-karoly)
Posts: 12001
Member
 

Tom Adams, post: 363295, member: 7285 wrote: I couldn't help myself but post in his comments section. We don't even know that this surveyor is actually doing what that guy says he is.

Someone attributes the Surveyor's practice to a certain recent political leaning as if fifty or 100 years ago Surveyors weren't doing the same thing, worse in some ways, in some counties here in the 1940s and 1950s Surveyors only staked the Deed even ignoring senior rights.

 
Posted : March 20, 2016 8:13 am
holy-cow
(@holy-cow)
Posts: 25369
Supporter
 

WOW! Just, WOW!

Those who can string words together into long, obfuscating sentences can fire up all sorts of ignorant people to do incredibly silly things. Centuries ago, kings learned to have such people permanently removed from the gene pool for the good of the masses.

 
Posted : March 20, 2016 8:19 am
 vern
(@vern)
Posts: 1520
Member
 

Where is the bull crap :poop:
Smilie?

 
Posted : March 20, 2016 8:38 am
(@rj-schneider)
Posts: 2784
Member
 

 
Posted : March 20, 2016 9:06 am

adam
 adam
(@adam)
Posts: 1163
Supporter
 

Man, now I gotta go get some popcorn!:-D

 
Posted : March 20, 2016 9:18 am
 ddsm
(@ddsm)
Posts: 2229
Member
 

Here is a current case in ARKANSAS. Connie Watkins v. The Surveyor, The Board, and The State Surveyor for ignoring original monuments, setting math monuments, and the Board covering it up. Follow the details:

https://caseinfo.aoc.arkansas.gov/cconnect/PROD/public/ck_public_qry_main.cp_main_idx

Search by person's name

13777240
CONNIE WATKINS
Aliases: ,WATKINS, CONNIE Case: 60CV-15-4085 CONNIE WATKINS ET AL V ARK AGRICULTURE DEPT ET AL
Status:
PLAINTIFF 28-AUG-15 , HON. TIM FOX - 6TH DIVISION PULASKI CIRCUIT COURT

See complaint/petition filed (there are two parts)

Enjoy

DDSM
Sent from my iPhone

 
Posted : March 20, 2016 9:32 am
(@ridge)
Posts: 2702
Member
 

To a certain extent I agree with the general attitude of the article. I know nothing about the area or surveyors written about. The article refers to math stakeout and retracement and then goes on the define retracement as only the original lines. That''s generally correct but there is a third way that involves the establishment doctrines. This varies state to state but in Utah the law clearly defines how boundaries get fixed (established by landowner actions and time) in place. This involves applying the common law to the ‰ÛÏretracement‰Û side of land surveying. This is where the ‰ÛÏland surveying profession has gone off the rails.‰Û I don't think is so much fraud as just ignorance to the law and it does go from the bottom to the top of the profession. I have seen some stuff that I would consider fraud though where a surveyor seemed to ‰ÛÏmake up‰Û a stone needed to complete and base the work on to get paid.

In my view the only way surveyors are going to ‰ÛÏprotect the public‰Û is to learn and apply the common and statutory law in their state. Refusing to do this and they deserve to be taken out of the equation as the stewards of land boundaries in the US.

The other side of this, at least where I live, is the public's lack of care of the PLSS and other care in marking and preserving land boundaries. They didn't care for and preserve the original corners, they haven't written deeds from survey measurements and noted calls to corner markers (or even placed them), proper records have not been kept. Most of all they have refused to pay for real quality survey work and it continues to this very day. Then they complain when a surveyor can't confidently locate their boundary for some paltry sum of money. So in the end the public is getting what they were not willing to pay for. The courts have recognized this and therefore provided the answer in the establishment doctrines, landowners, you sleep in the bed you made.

 
Posted : March 20, 2016 9:32 am
thebionicman
(@thebionicman)
Posts: 4465
Supporter
 

Our Board had 2 Surveyors on it when this started. One was a dedicated member and the other was a PELS sitting as an Engineer. They don't have the Legislative authority to impose solutions on members of the public. The grain of truth sprinkled on this crap sandwich of an article is that some Surveyors do not diligently search for and honor evidence of original location.
I don't know enough about this particular case to comnent. Neither does the 'author'.

 
Posted : March 20, 2016 9:39 am
(@tom-adams)
Posts: 3453
Member
 

LRDay, post: 363314, member: 571 wrote: To a certain extent I agree with the general attitude of the article. I know nothing about the area or surveyors written about. The article refers to math stakeout and retracement and then goes on the define retracement as only the original lines. That''s generally correct but there is a third way that involves the establishment doctrines. This varies state to state but in Utah the law clearly defines how boundaries get fixed (established by landowner actions and time) in place. This involves applying the common law to the ‰ÛÏretracement‰Û side of land surveying. This is where the ‰ÛÏland surveying profession has gone off the rails.‰Û I don't think is so much fraud as just ignorance to the law and it does go from the bottom to the top of the profession. I have seen some stuff that I would consider fraud though where a surveyor seemed to ‰ÛÏmake up‰Û a stone needed to complete and base the work on to get paid.

In my view the only way surveyors are going to ‰ÛÏprotect the public‰Û is to learn and apply the common and statutory law in their state. Refusing to do this and they deserve to be taken out of the equation as the stewards of land boundaries in the US.

The other side of this, at least where I live, is the public's lack of care of the PLSS and other care in marking and preserving land boundaries. They didn't care for and preserve the original corners, they haven't written deeds from survey measurements and noted calls to corner markers (or even placed them), proper records have not been kept. Most of all they have refused to pay for real quality survey work and it continues to this very day. Then they complain when a surveyor can't confidently locate their boundary for some paltry sum of money. So in the end the public is getting what they were not willing to pay for. The courts have recognized this and therefore provided the answer in the establishment doctrines, landowners, you sleep in the bed you made.

I agree with you wholeheartedly Leon. The guy even referenced Jeff Lucas. He does have some kind of clue. What bothers me is right at the surface he (a surveyor) has accused, named, trashed the surveyor for working a scam. I don't see where he interviewed the surveyor, I don't know for a fact that the surveyor always runs around staking the math with no regard to physical evidence, I don't know anything. Someone needs to put together an article about news reporters working scams of sensationalizing pieces for the money regardless of who's career it ruins. The surveyor should be taken to task in court and by the board if their work is grossly negligent. And the writer of the article should be finding out the surveyor's side, if they are going to go into such detail of how awful their work is.

 
Posted : March 20, 2016 10:11 am

 wgd
(@wgd)
Posts: 127
Member
 

Tom Adams, post: 363320, member: 7285 wrote: I agree with you wholeheartedly Leon. The guy even referenced Jeff Lucas. He does have some kind of clue. What bothers me is right at the surface he (a surveyor) has accused, named, trashed the surveyor for working a scam. I don't see where he interviewed the surveyor, I don't know for a fact that the surveyor always runs around staking the math with no regard to physical evidence, I don't know anything. Someone needs to put together an article about news reporters working scams of sensationalizing pieces for the money regardless of who's career it ruins. The surveyor should be taken to task in court and by the board if their work is grossly negligent. And the writer of the article should be finding out the surveyor's side, if they are going to go into such detail of how awful their work is.

Go watch the 30 for 30 "Fantastic Lies" on ESPN.....

There's certainly surveyors out there that I would love to strangle and there's probably someone out there that at some point wanted to strangle me. But, I thought it profoundly ironic that the author, a journalist, cried about another profession not being held accountable for their actions. Imagine if surveyors were able to withhold their sources......

 
Posted : March 20, 2016 10:21 pm
(@peter-ehlert)
Posts: 2953
Member
 

DEREK G. GRAHAM OLS OLIP, post: 363290, member: 285 wrote: Misguided author ?

http://personalliberty.com/monuments-move-landowners-lose-a-surveyors-dirty-little-secret/

Derek

Author? who is the Author? it was posted on The Bob Livingston page... did he write it or just copy/paste from some other source? Is Bob Livingston a surveyor or just another wanabe publisher?

 
Posted : March 21, 2016 5:45 am
not-my-real-name
(@not-my-real-name)
Posts: 1081
Supporter
 

It is certainly misguided and more likely libelous to make such statements. I blame this on Jeffrey Lucas and his constant nagging about the "slapping math on the ground" arguments that are a continuous theme of his writings.

In my entire career I have known many surveyors who were respectable and only a few who were not. If this type of fraud is occurring in all 50 states as attributed to Lucas then let him be the Lone Ranger to start the prosecution.

It seems to me whenever there is trouble for surveyors the name Lucas is mentioned. He has anointed himself as the inquisitor.

Historic boundaries and conservation efforts.

 
Posted : March 21, 2016 8:41 am
(@peter-ehlert)
Posts: 2953
Member
 

Lucas is always looking for trouble, perhapsthe he creates it. He makes sweeping judgments about all, but he is actually only familiar with his home town... In my opinion

 
Posted : March 21, 2016 8:59 am
(@tommy-young)
Posts: 2402
Member
 

not my real name, post: 363456, member: 8199 wrote: It is certainly misguided and more likely libelous to make such statements. I blame this on Jeffrey Lucas and his constant nagging about the "slapping math on the ground" arguments that are a continuous theme of his writings.

In my entire career I have known many surveyors who were respectable and only a few who were not. If this type of fraud is occurring in all 50 states as attributed to Lucas then let him be the Lone Ranger to start the prosecution.

It seems to me whenever there is trouble for surveyors the name Lucas is mentioned. He has anointed himself as the inquisitor.

The truth hurts.

 
Posted : March 21, 2016 9:34 am

Page 1 / 3