The counties register of deeds should have recorded copies of the plans. This site is right on the county line so I searched both registries. There is nothing in either. It makes me think they have somehow walked off and never came home.
In a perfect world, such a vague description should never have been allowed in the deed. The deed and if needed a drawing (both filed in the same records office), should always be sufficient for retracement.
I once did some work on a piece of I-84 in the Columbia Gorge near Bonneville Dam. Adjacent land is a "National Scenic Area" with title held by the state. But there isn't a title deed, the land has always been held by the state since statehood. And there was no right of way deed for the Interstate Hwy. The highway centerline plans showed a right of way line but no deed to make it official.
More RW was needed for this project - beyond that unofficial RW line on the plans- and extensive efforts were made to find someone at the state (specifically the parks department) who could and would sign a right of way deed. The effort was eventually given up and the work (a placement bridge) proceeded without it. As far as I know no one objected.
If your parcel was in state hands at the time the Highway was built something like that may have happened. It was state land anyway so nobody bothered. Later when the land was sold to private interests nobody noticed.
If the right-of-way was created via condemnation there will normally be no such record or description in the courthouse outside of the District Court records or whatever the appropriate title is in your State. Finding condemnation records is complicated. It usually requires you to know far more than you do. But, the State DOT will have that info..............somewhere.
I was looking for a 60's era ROW at the local courthouse and finally asked for help. Clerk says that would be in Map book 123? which was not indexed. I asked to see it, the clerk gave me 100 microfilm cards in order at a time and I reviewed them all. Quite a search but I found what I needed. They were in order of filing over a several year period and very random as far as location along the highway. The Filed Map is the taking instrument, no deeds filed and seldom properly added on subsequent transfer documents.
The parcel I was had first been transected by an East West US highway in the 40's and the road the lot fronted on to the North was relocated to an overpass. When the North South highway in the 60's was constructed the highway and interchange ramps forced removal of the overpass and abandonment of part of the relocated road. That relocated road was the sole frontage for a lot being developed. Subsequently I went to the Township and serendipitously knew the right guy who remembered those maps were in the Township Garage. I split the pavement, put in some railroad spikes, matched a subdivision line to the East and set pins 1' off the fence to the South and West and VOILA! a description was born. Gross lot area was to centerline of road and net to ROW line.
Paul in PA
Unfortunately, missing plans for Interstate and other projects are quite common. The plans retained by the R/W office are the "official" plans for the r/w acquisition. When the project is complete these plans are reduced to 11x17 often rendering them illegible. Often the division construction office will have as-builts for the project that are never sent to Raleigh. The next place is the records and documents management office in Raleigh. Just be careful sometimes the r/w office plans are revised and the revisions are not noted on the plans retained by the construction side.
Holy Cow, post: 382902, member: 50 wrote: If the right-of-way was created via condemnation there will normally be no such record or description in the courthouse outside of the District Court records or whatever the appropriate title is in your State. Finding condemnation records is complicated. It usually requires you to know far more than you do. But, the State DOT will have that info..............somewhere.
Actually it's the opposite in NC. If the property is condemned, you get a real survey and description recorded with the declaration of taking.
If you just accept their deal without going to court, you get the vague description described previously.
The difficulty with tracking down condemnation information is part of why I have become so familiar with the State offices of DOT. They have always been very helpful and provide all sorts of information, when they have it. The bigger challenge comes when what is now a State highway was once a County highway. Many times the case is one of much missing information, including simple right-of-way width over long stretches. The original County road opening information states a definite right-of-way width that quite clearly is far narrower than the area being maintained in the normal case. The counties tend to have been far less concerned about doing things properly compared to the State procedures.
There are times when we discover the County files for ancient highway and bridge construction are better than the State files. There are times when the reverse is true. I have received information from 1930 State highways that is in fantastic condition and detail. On the other hand, I recently needed details from about 1995 for a major new highway plan and could not get it. But, I went another direction and came up with the section corner information maintained by a separate State DOT office.
Holy Cow, post: 382939, member: 50 wrote: ...There are times when we discover the County files for ancient highway and bridge construction are better than the State files. There are times when the reverse is true. I have received information from 1930 State highways that is in fantastic condition and detail. On the other hand, I recently needed details from about 1995 for a major new highway plan and could not get it..
Don't know how prevalent it was, but around here the county WAS the HMFIC up until about 1930 when it came to roads. I'm assuming the creation of the Federal Aid Projects (FAP) is what instigated the change. Until that time the fledgling Oklahoma Highway Dept. was little more than a clerical outfit.
And your right, the county engineer kept pretty good track of things, RW wise. A small single span county bridge project in 1925 has recorded RW documents that rival today's standards. When the State Highway Department became the throttle of federal funds most of the county engineers turned their records over to the state in a good faith effort to centralize everything. Bad move. Most of those records were stuffed in storage and forgotten.
Another "aw shoot" that occurred back then was when the state obtained R/W the respective county wanted to charge the state for recording the documentation. Someone at the state decided that wouldn't happen. And from about 1935 to 1955 none of the state RW takes were recorded. Instead they attempted to maintain a "Right of Way Department". There again, things got stuffed into damp basements and empty warehouses and eventually destroyed. A difficult thing to research nowadays.
What county?
Contact Dwayne Draughon in NCDOT's Raleigh office. He will be able to help. There should be a DOT project number in the top right corner of the r/w deed that they can reference the plans. There are quite a few major roads without plans, but I doubt the Interstate is not archived in Raleigh. Might have to locate the road to get the r/w.
rpenci, post: 382950, member: 2429 wrote: What county?
Contact Dwayne Draughon in NCDOT's Raleigh office. He will be able to help. There should be a DOT project number in the top right corner of the r/w deed that they can reference the plans. There are quite a few major roads without plans, but I doubt the Interstate is not archived in Raleigh. Might have to locate the road to get the r/w.
Thanks, Its I 85 pretty close to the Gaston Cleveland line. Property is mostly in Gaston. I have located the road, I will call Dwayne.
Here are examples of our illustrious r/w descriptions. The first being an old interstate r/w description, the second being a typical description for secondary roads and the third being a condemnation description.
They absolutely must have those plans. If he called the headquarters office in Raleigh, I bet they will dig them up. If it was through federal land like Forest land, it may have been built by the Bureau of Public Roads, who is now called FHWA. But if is now an interstate through private lands I would bet it is in the DOT offices.
If you have more problems, make sure and fill out a request for public records form (if they have a standard form) or send them a request to view public records request in writing to make sure you start a paper-trail. I suspect they'll come up with what you need, however, if they are anything like our DOT.
Tom Adams, post: 382960, member: 7285 wrote: They absolutely must have those plans. If he called the headquarters office in Raleigh, I bet they will dig them up. If it was through federal land like Forest land, it may have been built by the Bureau of Public Roads, who is now called FHWA. But if is now an interstate through private lands I would bet it is in the DOT offices.
If you have more problems, make sure and fill out a request for public records form (if they have a standard form) or send them a request to view public records request in writing to make sure you start a paper-trail. I suspect they'll come up with what you need, however, if they are anything like our DOT.
The district R/W agent contacted the main headquarters and I am waiting to hear back. It's not thru private lands, something is bound to be in Raliegh. We'll see.
Adam, post: 382974, member: 8900 wrote: .... something is bound to be in Raliegh. We'll see.
Yes, that's what I think. Sometimes we've had to go to the FHWA for plans, where an old road hasn't changed for a long time since they built it, but with an interstate highway, I would think they will come up with them.